Hunting - the window into Politics

[unbeliever]

Unbeliever - "What does this tell you about my politics? Genuine question."

 

Gosh this is hard - You asked the question. I gave an answer - How did I do?

 

So far we know you didn't vote Labour and there was no SNP candidate on you ballot paper. You said you are against hunting and would say so if asked and a parliamentary vote is asking that exact question so that was a bit of a no brainer for me. All your sentiments expressed so far chime with Conservative views. So tell me where am I getting you wrong , if you don't I will assume I'm on the right lines.

 

When people talk about banning things, you'll usually find me on the side of the libertarians. I suppose there are more of those in the Conservative party these days.

Wasn't always that way. In the early Blair days Labour valued liberty.

The lib dems seem to be losing their liberalism to socialism. Which is annoying.

 

I'd never have voted for a ban, but now that there's one in place the case is less clear to me.

[A.B.Yaffle]

Your suggestion that I was somehow insulting country folk is so disconnected from what I said that I can't think where you could have got it from.

 

To answer your question, I grew up in rural Leicestershire. So I'm in fact country folk myself and I'm one of those who doesn't know which knife and fork to use. That was a reference to the aristocracy.

Hunts were common-place. Completely harmless to people as far as I can see and a long-standing British tradition.

 

The incidents of hunts being inconsiderate and/or damaging were rare and could have been dealt with by requiring all hunts to follow the standards set by the rest.

 

The case was made on the basis of animal cruelty. Are you now saying hunts should have been banned for occasional trespassing by a minority?

 

---------- Post added 16-07-2015 at 18:28 ----------

 

 

I've voted for pretty much everybody in my time. Although I do find myself at odds with radical socialists more than most. I always read all the manifestos and I don't usually decide who to vote for until quite late.

Ed Milliband was reason enough not to vote Labour last time. Sturgeon was irrelevant to me.

 

---------- Post added 16-07-2015 at 18:35 ----------

 

 

The horses and dogs were already there. They became redundant. Redundant animals are usually destroyed. This could have been avoided by handling the matter more gently. People as well could have been allowed time to change their business model.

Destroying jobs which exist is a quite different matter than failing to create them.

 

Still it's not just about jobs and horses. Real people had an valuable part of their lives taken away. You don't just go around banning things because the world would be a better place without them. People are entitled to make their own choices.

 

 

Earlier I threatened examples of things which are worse but not banned. I'll start with this one.

I suppose most are familiar with what's involved in traditional preparation of Kosher/Halal meat. If not, it's easy enough to find out. It's allowed under UK law. Quite obviously serious animal cruelty on a far greater scale than fox hunting. Shall we ban that too? It will only affect traditionalist Jews and Muslims.

 

I already pointed out your theory about the ban causing job losses and animals to be destroyed as irrelevant as more people take part now due to it being less cruel.

 

Regarding banning other things such as halal slaughter, I would be delighted if all abattoirs closed as I'm a vegetarian. However, banning meat is different from the hunting ban. For several decades there has been a huge majority of the public who think fox hunting should be consigned to history. Throughout the Thatcher years, whenever anyone tried to bring an opposition bill through, the Tories would kill the bill insisting it was a trivial matter and there were more important policies to discuss. The labour government eventually managed to go with public opinion and ban it.

 

Now Cameron thinks it is important to bring it back. Public opinion hasn't changed... The vast majority of the public still support the ban. Has Cameron learnt nothing from the way people viewed the last Tory government as being arrogant and ignoring the public opinion for personal interest? Cameron was a fox hunter himself until it was banned.

[krooner]

I just think I've been fortunate in that I've never found myself in a situation in which I've needed to resist such a disgusting urge.

[taxman]

 

The horses and dogs were already there. They became redundant. Redundant animals are usually destroyed. This could have been avoided by handling the matter more gently. People as well could have been allowed time to change their business model.

Destroying jobs which exist is a quite different matter than failing to create them.

 

 

 

No they didn't.

 

One of the arguments put forward by hunters (one of the increasingly bizarre and conflicting one) is that they don't hunt for the kill, they hunt to exercise the horses and so that Jemima and the pony club can ride their horses. If that is the case they can drag hunt. Just as fun and no smearing of dead fox blood on some child's face at the end.

 

 

If the argument for fox hunting is pest control then they should stop setting up artificial dens and should stop breeding cubs so they can be killed.

 

Their arguments are dead in the water. It's not pest control, it's having fun killing animals. Now I have a word for people like that.

 

Perverts.

[unbeliever]

No they didn't.

 

One of the arguments put forward by hunters (one of the increasingly bizarre and conflicting one) is that they don't hunt for the kill, they hunt to exercise the horses and so that Jemima and the pony club can ride their horses. If that is the case they can drag hunt. Just as fun and no smearing of dead fox blood on some child's face at the end.

 

 

If the argument for fox hunting is pest control then they should stop setting up artificial dens and should stop breeding cubs so they can be killed.

 

Their arguments are dead in the water. It's not pest control, it's having fun killing animals. Now I have a word for people like that.

 

Perverts.

 

That's a strange word to use. Rather harsh. Do you apply the same word to recreational fishermen?

[alchemist]

 

 

Earlier I threatened examples of things which are worse but not banned. I'll start with this one.

I suppose most are familiar with what's involved in traditional preparation of Kosher/Halal meat. If not, it's easy enough to find out. It's allowed under UK law. Quite obviously serious animal cruelty on a far greater scale than fox hunting. Shall we ban that too? It will only affect traditionalist Jews and Muslims.

 

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing hunting with Kosher food??? I personally dont recall gangs of jews and muslims riding around in red coats encouraging a pack of vicious dogs to rip apart ther food before they eat it.

 

---------- Post added 17-07-2015 at 08:21 ----------

 

The horses and dogs were already there. They became redundant. Redundant animals are usually destroyed. .

 

So how many horses and dogs WERE actually put down? How many jobs WERE actually lost? We were threatened with MASSIVE figures by the hunt supporters yet I dont recall seeing piles of dead dogs and horses and long queues of huntsmen at the dole offices.

 

---------- Post added 17-07-2015 at 08:25 ----------

 

No they didn't.

 

One of the arguments put forward by hunters (one of the increasingly bizarre and conflicting one) is that they don't hunt for the kill, they hunt to exercise the horses and so that Jemima and the pony club can ride their horses. If that is the case they can drag hunt. Just as fun and no smearing of dead fox blood on some child's face at the end.

 

 

If the argument for fox hunting is pest control then they should stop setting up artificial dens and should stop breeding cubs so they can be killed.

 

Their arguments are dead in the water. It's not pest control, it's having fun killing animals. Now I have a word for people like that.

 

Perverts.

 

Do you recall where one supporter actually claimed that the fox ENJOYS it!!!

 

So now I also have a word for statements like that, morons

 

---------- Post added 17-07-2015 at 08:30 ----------

 

That's a strange word to use. Rather harsh.

 

Actually, I think its a rather excellent term to use for fox hunters, hare coursers and badger baiters. All of which were viewed as traditional country "sports"!! And who can forget the equally traditional fun of bear baiting, **** fighting, dog fighting, ratting and bare knuckle fighting.

 

Shall we run a book on which of these it will be suggsted that we bring back next? After all they are minority traditional "sports" that were banned

[unbeliever]

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing hunting with Kosher food??? I personally dont recall gangs of jews and muslims riding around in red coats encouraging a pack of vicious dogs to rip apart ther food before they eat it.

 

I'm comparing animal cruelty. Why is one okay and the other not?

 

I'm sure the animals don't care whether the people who make them suffer are wearing silly outfits and sitting on horses.

[cassity]

I'm comparing animal cruelty. Why is one okay and the other not?

 

I'm sure the animals don't care whether the people who make them suffer are wearing silly outfits and sitting on horses.

 

So you now have the fox and fish as sentient?

[unbeliever]

So you now have the fox and fish as sentient?

 

Did you mean sentient or sapient?

If the latter then surely I was making exactly the reverse point. The animals "don't care" because they don't have the capacity, they are however sentient and are capable of experiencing suffering.

[RonJeremy]

But the fox isn't classed as vermin is it? That would just be your opinion .

Tally Ho

 

It's not a case of not controlling the fox population but asking if the most efficient way of doing this is having a bunch of overweight chinless wonders dashing hither and thither on flippin' great horses.

 

This is the Space Year 2015, can't Rentokill or the like deal with it instead?

 

Has it really caused a lot of harm, really?? As far as I can see nothing has changed. A bunch of idiots are still riding around on horses wearing their stupid red coats blowing a horn to announce that idiots are approaching. Bloody thirsty hounds are still rnning around totally out of control with the sole intention of ripping a fox apart.

 

When this debate started we were promised, and thats the word used by a supporter, promised, that thousands of dogs and horses would have to be put down, hunts closed and hundreds, if not thousands, made unemployed.

 

I never saw the piles of dead dogs or dead horses, did you? Hunts seem to be still going strong and OK, maybe a few were made unemployed, but HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS???

 

They lied then, they are still lying now.

 

You seem to have got yourself quite het up about this havent you? How do YOU know my past and be able to pass an opinion on what I do or do not know? I was brought up in the country with farmers kids as my friends and still have farmers as friends. They were all against hunting, but I suppose that was because they were socialist aritocracy bashers as well? Perhaps it was more because they wernt impressed by the way the "innocent" hunts came careering uninvited across their land wrecking their fences and scaring their livestock, or perhaps it was the way that the well controlled dogs only occasionally ripped apart the odd lamb while the hunters stood around laughing.

 

But of course the ignorant country bumpkins who you quite happily demean and personally attack in your rant are just forelock tugging serfs who should be pleased and thankful to have thier land trampled all over and their liveihood destroyed by their lords and masters just to keep a blood thristy "sport" going?

 

So sorry to disallusion you, but I DO know what I am talking about, sadly from bitter experiance But if you want to salve your conscience by thinking that I am merely a socialist toff basher you go ahead, suit yourself

 

BTW, what experiance do YOU have concerning hunts and the country community

 

No they didn't.

 

One of the arguments put forward by hunters (one of the increasingly bizarre and conflicting one) is that they don't hunt for the kill, they hunt to exercise the horses and so that Jemima and the pony club can ride their horses. If that is the case they can drag hunt. Just as fun and no smearing of dead fox blood on some child's face at the end.

 

 

If the argument for fox hunting is pest control then they should stop setting up artificial dens and should stop breeding cubs so they can be killed.

 

Their arguments are dead in the water. It's not pest control, it's having fun killing animals. Now I have a word for people like that.

 

Perverts.

 

I think you have all probably hit the nail on the head here. It's about who is doing it not really about what they do. It's a perceived class war (when the reality is very different). Otherwise the first thing they would have banned would have been Halal/Kosher slaughter, followed swiftly by fishing.