Should doctors work at the weekend?

[Eater Sundae]

Surely it must be obvious to everyone that to provide the service that the Government is talking about (whatever that is ) must require some additional people. Maybe only in a few specific disciplines. So it must cost more.

 

There seem to be some commenting as if individual doctors are being expected to work, say, 40% more hours. That's never going to happen. If this 24/7 working comes about, then it will be covered like in every other industry (including current NHS requirements in other areas), by a mixture of some people working rotating shift patterns, some always working nights, some always working weekends, some never working weekends etc etc, to suit the needs of the hospital and the needs of the staff.

 

The reality is that at different times in their careers, different working patterns can suit different people. For example, when her children were young, my sister in law (a nurse) preferred to work long overnight weekend shifts as it suited her childcare needs, as her husband who worked in a 5 day Monday to Friday job could cover the childcare at weekends. However, another couple with similar aged children might have preferred to both work during the week so that the whole family could spend time together at weekends. There's no one size fits all working pattern.

 

I think another key issue is the truth behind whether lack of expert cover at weekends is a real factor at present. The points raised by Cyclone seem very relevant. But if it can be demonstrated that lack of expert cover is causing increased deaths, then it does need to be addressed - by extra qualified people, not by spreading the current expertise more thinly.

[JFKvsNixon]

Surely it must be obvious to everyone that to provide the service that the Government is talking about (whatever that is ) must require some additional people. Maybe only in a few specific disciplines. So it must cost more.

 

There seem to be some commenting as if individual doctors are being expected to work, say, 40% more hours. That's never going to happen. If this 24/7 working comes about, then it will be covered like in every other industry (including current NHS requirements in other areas), by a mixture of some people working rotating shift patterns, some always working nights, some always working weekends, some never working weekends etc etc, to suit the needs of the hospital and the needs of the staff.

 

The reality is that at different times in their careers, different working patterns can suit different people. For example, when her children were young, my sister in law (a nurse) preferred to work long overnight weekend shifts as it suited her childcare needs, as her husband who worked in a 5 day Monday to Friday job could cover the childcare at weekends. However, another couple with similar aged children might have preferred to both work during the week so that the whole family could spend time together at weekends. There's no one size fits all working pattern.

 

I think another key issue is the truth behind whether lack of expert cover at weekends is a real factor at present. The points raised by Cyclone seem very relevant. But if it can be demonstrated that lack of expert cover is causing increased deaths, then it does need to be addressed - by extra qualified people, not by spreading the current expertise more thinly.

 

When I'm talking about a 40% extra workload, I'm talking about the costs to the NHS. If you also take the weekend pay enhancements into consideration, the extra 40% workload will end up costing even more.

 

Also, any lack of cover at the weekends and night, will be due to the hospitals cutting back on their expenses and not funding the cover. This shouldn't be mixed up with the 7 day NHS working week proposal.

Edited July 17, 2015 by JFKvsNixon

[Magilla]

i think liar is a bit strong but maybe you misunderstood thats all

 

We both know I didn't misunderstand anything.

 

sometimes i work 7 days a week in some form sometimes i only work 7 day a month, sometimes i earn enough in 7 days for the whole month, sometimes it takes longer

 

A great shame then, that you didn't qualify that then when claiming doctors should have to work more because you (allegedly) have to!

 

and as for wasting time on a forum check your post rate to mine??

 

I think that if you had actually bothered to check as you have just challenged me to do, you wouldn't have posted that

[Daven]

We get ill 24/7 so we should have medics 24/7.

 

There are medics available 24/7 in the NHS.

What is your point exactly ?

 

---------- Post added 17-07-2015 at 19:21 ----------

 

In an ideal world with no restraints on funding or staffing we would have full cover for care every day of every week of the year whatever day it was or hour of the day.

As it stands, at weekends and 'out of hours' the service is an 'on call' one which means that anyone who is very sick will be dealt with - those who can wait will be made to.

Without more funding and more staff this will not change. And now we have Camerons army in the chair things will only get worse - mark my words.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Daven

[Cyclone]

Has anyone checked out the twitter campaign that's going on?

 

"‪#‎ImInWorkJeremy‬ with my Consultant since 08.00 and we are now waiting for our first patient on our list to arrive in Theatre to replace/repair their joint.

Thankfully also in our Hospital over the weekend are a number of Porters, HCAs, Lab Technicians, Radiographers, Ward Nurses and Doctors, Theatre Scrub Nurses, ODPs, Theatre Recovery Staff, Anaesthetists (including a Consultant no-less), Physiotherapists, Cleaners and Catering Staff making this safe and physically possible today - not even mentioning all of the Medical Doctors and their multi-disciplinary teams working around the hospital (and the vast majority of other hospitals in the UK right now on a weekend and every weekend of every year).

With any luck we have enough of these dedicated people today to make our list go smoothly.

Add a million more Consultants with no additional supporting staff and we will not achieve anything more. Please stop demoralising us as Professionals and support us in what we have dedicated our lives to do."

 

For example.

 

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/iminworkjeremy?source=feed_text&story_id=10155738906785411

Edited July 18, 2015 by Cyclone

[TJC1]

voted yes simply because its unfair for people who work mon-fri not to get an appointment, while others can use NHS freely.

the lack of trained doctors worries me though, it takes 7 years to train a doctor, i am unsure if this will work in practice.

 

---------- Post added 18-07-2015 at 14:17 ----------

 

Surely it must be obvious to everyone that to provide the service that the Government is talking about (whatever that is ) must require some additional people. Maybe only in a few specific disciplines. So it must cost more.

 

There seem to be some commenting as if individual doctors are being expected to work, say, 40% more hours. That's never going to happen. If this 24/7 working comes about, then it will be covered like in every other industry (including current NHS requirements in other areas), by a mixture of some people working rotating shift patterns, some always working nights, some always working weekends, some never working weekends etc etc, to suit the needs of the hospital and the needs of the staff.

 

The reality is that at different times in their careers, different working patterns can suit different people. For example, when her children were young, my sister in law (a nurse) preferred to work long overnight weekend shifts as it suited her childcare needs, as her husband who worked in a 5 day Monday to Friday job could cover the childcare at weekends. However, another couple with similar aged children might have preferred to both work during the week so that the whole family could spend time together at weekends. There's no one size fits all working pattern.

 

I think another key issue is the truth behind whether lack of expert cover at weekends is a real factor at present. The points raised by Cyclone seem very relevant. But if it can be demonstrated that lack of expert cover is causing increased deaths, then it does need to be addressed - by extra qualified people, not by spreading the current expertise more thinly.

 

inevitable that it will lead to longer hours, more stressed GPs. At least in the short term.

[Daven]

If GP's provided a well publicised service at weekends the strain on A&E's would be greatly reduced.

[Cyclone]

Here's another comment from a Dr.

 

Dear Mr Cameron,

 

On Wednesday morning this week I returned to work at 0800. I worked the weekend in Intensive Care as a junior doctor, for your information I was working from 2000 to 0900 on Friday, Saturday and Sunday i.e. I was part of the team that provided a 24 hour, 7 days a week, 365 days a year service. My consultant started his weekend of work at 1700 on the Friday. He finished at 0800 on Monday morning. He didn't go home until well after we had started our night shift and he was in before we went home in the morning. We also disturbed him overnight to tell him about our unstable patients. He didn't grumble once. Our anaesthetic consultant didn't grumble when we took a patient back to theatre for bleeding in the middle of the night, nor did he grumble when he was anaesthetising an emergency case the following night. The consultant surgeon also didn’t grumble. Your irresponsible colleague Jeremy Hunt seems hell bent on suggesting to the public that there is no 7 day a week service and that consultants do not work weekends. I have submitted a request, via the Freedom of Information Act, to the Department of Health last night to quantify how many consultants currently opt out of weekend working. I look forward to finding out.

 

In the middle of the night my colleagues (doctors AND nurses AND radiographers AND healthcare assistants) and myself were assessing patients with multi-organ failure being supported with complex devices, these patients are teetering on the brink of death all the time. At the end of my 3 night stint, just when I was at my lowest ebb, a patient got really sick. You try managing that after you've been up all night and then tell me the NHS isn't 24 hours 7 days a week 365 days a year. When you have personal experience of that, I would like you to look me, and every other doctor in the NHS, in the eye and tell us that you genuinely believe that we are being adequately paid for all the responsibility that rests on our shoulders.

 

Let's put things in to context. An Assistant Manager in Pret-a-Manger has a salary of £29,500 and a Manager £40,800. In other roles their starting hourly rate is £7.70/hr everywhere except inside London where they pay £7.90/hr. On the current pay system a doctor has to work for a minimum of 9 years after graduating from their 5 year degree course before they have a basic salary higher than a Manager who works in Pret. How much student debt did people working in these roles accrue?

 

On Monday night I did something Jeremy Hunt has openly chastised. I worked another night shift as a locum in another hospital. Why did I do this? Because I, 34 years old, did not want to have to borrow money, yet again, from my elderly parents. It's embarrassing but you see I studied medicine as a second degree. I am Scottish but studied in England and therefore was liable for all my tuition fees and did not receive the NHS bursary, unlike my European colleagues. Sadly, during those four years, the student loans did not even cover my rent. I accumulated £20,000 professional studies loan and £7000 of credit card debt. Over £1000/month of my salary is used for debt repayment and I still have 26 more months to pay before I am only left with my student loan repayment. Living in London, my rent is £926/month. How much of my salary do you think I actually get to enjoy? Do you think I will ever be able to afford to buy a one bedroom flat in London? I don't think it's unreasonable to want to own the flat I live in, neither do you apparently but yet you seem hell bent on making it impossible for me.

 

This month I have to pay £325 upfront in cash for a mandatory course as part of my training in anaesthesia. I will get that money back, eventually, but to be honest it will then be used up as I need to sit an exam, again, mandatory for my training. Those exams are tough and I may not pass it on my first attempt. Surprisingly enough, the NHS doesn't pay for continuing professional development, I will need to study for this in my free time if I want to progress and yet you claim to want a world class service? How do you anticipate that will happen when you and your Health Minister have no idea what life as a doctor is like? I would relish the opportunity to have you shadow us on a night shift, but you won’t.

 

Has any of the above made you think that it's not quite such a rosy life being a junior doctor?

 

Do I have to remind you that in order to get a place to study medicine I had to excel academically? I had to be better than all those other applicants who wanted to study medicine. I studied medicine at the University of Cambridge. In many other professions that would have been my ticket to earning mega bucks. As people frequently and correctly point out medicine is a vocation. I truly love my job and my career but I think you have lost sight of the bigger picture. It's all very good claiming you want a world class health service but if you continue to act irresponsibly and vilify doctors by suggesting we don't provide a 7 day a week service you will destroy the NHS.

 

My basic salary is less than £50,000 after working for almost 4 years since graduation. I studied for 4 years on an accelerated medicine degree while a newly qualified TFL Tube driver earns £49,673. Can you put your hand on your heart and tell me you think this is fair? "Making work pay" is your party's current slogan. Can you explain to me exactly how all my hard work is being rewarded? My reward isn't financial is it?. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. If you want a world class health service you need to ensure that medicine remains an attractive career and a competitive degree course. The more you continue to vilify doctors and bully us financially the more unattractive you make it. It doesn't take a genius to realise that results in a lower calibre of applicant and a lower calibre of doctor in the long run. Being blunt, to make it through medical school requires an immense capacity for knowledge, problem solving, resilience and good old fashioned intelligence with an enviable work ethic. You and your party have behaved disrespectfully towards my profession and the NHS as a whole. It disgusts me.

 

Congratulations on your inflation busting pay rise by the way. I believe you think the right thing to do is accept it, despite stating that you think it was the wrong decision to award it. A classic statement from a politician, if ever I heard one.

 

The sad thing Mr Cameron, when one of your friends or family members or even just someone you pass in the street becomes critically unwell in front of you, you will realise that whether it is the middle of the night or the middle of the day, a massive team will leap into action and that team consists of more than doctors, more than nurses, more than healthcare assistants, more than porters and more than the technicians in the labs running all the tests that we need to manage the patient. That patient will get everything they need. Perhaps then you might actually appreciate all the work we, as a team, do. You might then actually help us become a world class health service instead of working against us.

 

You need to get real, not doctors. You can't even pay doctors and nurses and all the allied health professionals an adequate salary for their scheduled hours and you certainly don't pay us for all the extra hours that we do outside of what we are supposed to. You do realise that Trusts across England actively discourage us from reporting the actual hours we work because they can't afford for us to breach the European Working Time Directive or actually pay us for the extra hours.

 

In summary you need to pay doctors, nurses and all the allied health professionals an appropriate salary that reflects the important roles we actually do in providing the 7 day a week service that we currently provide. If you genuinely want to improve patient safety then you just need to provide more staff at every level, patients would be safer if you adopted mandatory minimum safe staffing levels and ensured these were enforced. I realise this simple, yet effective solution, is costly and perhaps that is the reason Jeremy Hunt has chosen to deliberately attack Doctors.

 

I look forward to your response,

 

Janis Burns

 

‪#‎ImInWorkJeremy

 

This isn't about GPs. This is about all Drs.

[wrinkly67]

thanks for that Cyclone (haven't quoted as its so long). This message from Janis Burns is so heartfelt and made me feel quite sad. Some years ago my son was accepted to read medicine. Unfortunately he failed to achieve the necessary grade in one of his subjects, a grade lower than anything he'd had all the way through school. Bad exam day? Who knows. He picked himself up and went on to achieve a first class Masters in Chemical Engineering and now works in London. He does work hard and long hours but he's happy and, whilst a similar age, earning more than twice that of this young doctor. As things are, I now feel a sense of relief that my son is not part of what our NHS has become and isn't that a sad reflection for all those eager, talented hopefuls who will enter the profession in the future?

[plantas_Vzla]

Perhaps what we should change is our idea of how work or labour is perceived in our society. Doctors is the best example of this. Firemen is another. Aren't firemen available 24/7? aren't firemen also? well, perhaps, medical care personel should take a leaf from their books. Those occupations are perceived as a duty, not as work. Should we all make a society of duty?

Edited July 20, 2015 by plantas_Vzla
typ-o