Should doctors work at the weekend?

[Daven]

Nobody is asking them to work 7 days a week.

 

Not yet anyway.............................

[JFKvsNixon]

No it isn't. You'll need to come equipped with a better argument than that with me sunshine.

 

Really. Your argument that you could take staff off their normal duties during the week and move them on to working weekends and nights without there being any perceptible drop in services holds as much water as a colander.

[Eric Arthur]

Really. Your argument that you could take staff off their normal duties during the week and move them on to working weekends and nights without there being any perceptible drop in services holds as much water as a colander.

 

Of course there will be a "perceptible drop in service" 9-5 Mon-Fri. I thought that was so obvious that it didn't even need saying.

 

 

Have you any idea what level a registrar is or how long it's been since they qualified as a Dr?

Yes thanks. A registrar is still a doctor in training under full supervision. As a Yank might say "they still have the training wheels on".

 

The equipment and space is not the problem. It's used to the full capacity of the staff able to use it.

5 days a week, or 40% underutilised to look at it another way.

 

Making them work more unsociable hours won't increase the level of use, it will just be used less during the week.

Really? I mean, REALLY? You're a smart man, you must have a better grip on the real world than that. Don't be so defeatist in your nitpicking.

 

Doctors not working when people are sick is like firefighters not working when buildings are on fire.

 

Medical facilities without medical staff is like a fire station without firefighters.

 

And to save you or Daven asking the bleeding obvious rhetorical questions again:

Yes that means fewer doctors appointments 9-5 Mon-Fri.

Yes that means having appointments at "unsocial" hours.

Yes that means that the leccy bill will go up.

No that doesn't mean that a doctor will need to be paid more.

Yes that means that contracts will have to be rewritten.

 

 

Don't nitpick please, just come back with some hard facts and numbers that show it can't work instead of made up stuff like it will cost 40% more or worrying that doctors might not like working weekends instead of working out how patients can get better treatment services instead of the crap that we have now.

 

Or just agree that you got the wrong end of the stick and I'm right.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Eric Arthur

[Cyclone]

Eric, they're at the last stage before making consultant. They aren't under supervision routinely, although they are still learning (they learn throughout their career, it never stops).

 

Nothing defeatist about it. The equipment is utilised at the maximum the existing staffing level can achieve. Spreading it out more will achieve nothing.

 

Most doctors do NOT deal with emergency medicine. Fires are the equivalent of emergency medicine.

 

There is no advantage to anyone of running less of a service Mon - Fri. Absolutely no point.

 

It's not that it can't work, it's that there's entirely no point to making it work, and it will massively harm the morale of an already low morale profession.

 

How you think it won't cost more I don't know. Do you think that the cleaning staff, the porters, the nursing assistants, all the low paid staff that are also required to make the idea work, will work at night for the same rate that they work at day?

 

I'll agree that you've dreamt up a pointless scenario that only has disadvantages. Why, I'm not really sure.

[Eric Arthur]

So I'm right about registrars being in training under supervision. Thanks for that acknowledgement that I'm right and you're wrong.

 

On the other things, you're still wrong. As you've not been able to substantiate your opinions with any facts we can try another way to eek out why you're wrong stage by stage.

 

Pensioners and stay at home mums will be fine with a reduced 9-5 Mon-Fri service, but let's make it real. What were the implications for YOU when YOU last needed to use the NHS?

 

Let's have YOUR "pointless scenario". Lead on McDuff.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Eric Arthur

[Cyclone]

You've also been unable to substantiate your opinion with any facts.

 

However the entire medical profession agrees with me. Jeremy rhymes with Hunt agrees with you.

 

Do you mean a GP or do you mean in an emergency? Because they're clearly quite different things.

I've attended A&E for a number of reasons over the years, in the day, at night, in the week, at weekends. You know what, it's always staffed!

I've also been to my GPs a number of times. Weekday appointments aren't a problem for me, I just leave work for the requisite time and go to the GP. If weekend appointments were available I can't say that I'd be likely to use them.

 

You know what I've never done. I've never had a scheduled treatment (and I've had some) that I wished could have been done in the middle of the night, or even the early hours of the morning. If they said here's your MRI appointment, it's next Tuesday at 0200 in the morning. I'd ask them for another appointment.

 

Do you understand why elective and scheduled medicine and surgery doesn't take place at night or the weekend? It's because it doesn't need to.

Only emergencies need to be dealt with, and guess what, they already are.

[Eric Arthur]

However the entire medical profession agrees with me.

Wrong. http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/your-practice/practice-topics/access/hunt-ive-yet-to-meet-a-doctor-who-doesnt-want-seven-day-working/20010531.article#.Va9EQvlVhBc

 

---------- Post added 22-07-2015 at 08:22 ----------

 

Do you mean a GP or do you mean in an emergency? Because they're clearly quite different things.

Anything. It doesn't sound like you have much of a clue what GP's do these days. Maybe you don't access their services very often.

 

---------- Post added 22-07-2015 at 08:24 ----------

 

I've also been to my GPs a number of times. Weekday appointments aren't a problem for me, I just leave work for the requisite time and go to the GP. If weekend appointments were available I can't say that I'd be likely to use them

Good for you Cyclone. A sample of one. You can join the pensioners and stay at home mums. Millions of people people don't have that luxury.

 

---------- Post added 22-07-2015 at 08:28 ----------

 

You know what I've never done. I've never had a scheduled treatment (and I've had some) that I wished could have been done in the middle of the night, or even the early hours of the morning. If they said here's your MRI appointment, it's next Tuesday at 0200 in the morning. I'd ask them for another appointment.

Wow, talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, you really are missing the point here aren't you? The objective is giving patients a proper choice and better utilisation of facilities, not making it even more difficult for them to access services.

 

Here's another clue, how easy is it to get an MRI scan at 2am at the moment if you need one urgently?

 

---------- Post added 22-07-2015 at 08:31 ----------

 

Do you understand why elective and scheduled medicine and surgery doesn't take place at night or the weekend? It's because it doesn't need to.

Only emergencies need to be dealt with, and guess what, they already are.

 

Sorry sunshine, you're the one who's conflating and confusing all sorts of services to desperately try to prove a point. I thought that you were one of the smart ones on this board?

 

I don't think that you get pedantry treated on the NHS but I hear that opticians can give you glasses for short sightedness

Edited July 22, 2015 by Eric Arthur

[ricgem2002]

looking at the poll results from Sheffield forum it looks like the no voters have been defeated by the yes voters. if this in turn carries into a countrywide poll and action is took on it, it looks like we will see weekend working

[Cyclone]

And soon the final collapse of the NHS and privatisation.

 

I think this poll though is a) badly worded, and b) the voters not representing a cross section of the population.

 

The yes voters apparently don't even understand that Drs already work at weekends, unless they thought this was entirely about GPs (in which case they are merely ignorant of what is being discussed).

[wrinkly67]

And soon the final collapse of the NHS and privatisation.

 

I think this poll though is a) badly worded, and b) the voters not representing a cross section of the population.

 

The yes voters apparently don't even understand that Drs already work at weekends, unless they thought this was entirely about GPs (in which case they are merely ignorant of what is being discussed).

 

Cyclone, I appreciate that this is not about GP's but you have included them in your posts and I believe they are a vital part of the whole equation.

You are very lucky to be able to take time off work to see your GP. For many it wouldn't go down well with their employer, to the extent they could fear losing their jobs. For others, their jobs are also important in the overall scheme of keeping the country on its feet. Not everyone works close to their GP. It wouldn't then just be a case of losing the 7 minute appointment time away from work but could entail being away from work for a considerable time because of a commute.

There are many instances where you are fit for work but need to see your GP. Should seeing your GP during work-time be seen as a right? Should every employer be expected to have his/her workforce depleted because a member of staff has visited their GP?

What about other emergency services. firemen, policemen? Were they to take time off work to see their GP, wouldn't that put those services at risk? Think about that. They probably wouldn't have to and why? Because they work a rota system which gives them chance to see their GP without taking time off work BUT which also then continues to give 24/7 cover so that they are always there to give the care that they see as their job.

Would it not be more efficient overall if it weren't necessary to take time off work because GP's were available more easily during evenings/weekends? Isn't being there to help people also the job they have taken on? At which time they surely realised that helping people doesn't fit into limited hours?

All GP practices I know of have more than one GP, in many cases many, many more than one. Couldn't they devise a rota system to cover this?

 

[/"Only emergencies need to be dealt with and, guess what, they already are"B]

I don't have any figures to dispute this. I assume that you have.

What I do know is that there are many instances when seriously ill people, admitted to hospital over a weekend, with serious health issues such as heart attack, receive good care and are kept comfortable. But, for most, they are not offered or receive the operation it is well known they need at that time. This doesn't mean they will necessarily die but it is another patient added to the already lengthy waiting list to receive treatment at a later date, usually Monday to Friday, some time in the future. It is then another bed taken up for longer than need be. If more of this routine surgery were available over 7 days including weekends, wouldn't this free up beds more quickly for the next unfortunates needing help and wouldn't the waiting lists come down?

So, I stick to my opinions that GP's should be more readily available over 7 days, which would ease up the chaos in our A & E departments which are being mis-used by many people with minor complaints (possibly because their GP isn't available). This would give A & E's more time to deal with the seriously ill.

And, importantly, the fact that many consultants, employed by and being well paid for by our NHS, are not readily available to administer NHS care, because they are using our NHS facilities to further their lucrative private practices, should be looked into and addressed.