Poor migrants from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan

[dafodil]

As a very interesting topic on the Sheffield discussion SF site has now been closed. I want to ask another question - and it is only a question, I am sitting on the fence on this one until I hear other people's views.

 

A lot of the migrants / refugees getting out of Syria are young fit men.

Do you think they should stay behind in their own country and fight to oppose factions like ISis who are imposing barbaric religious laws etc. on people?

 

Young men here had to fight for freedom and many gave their lives to attain the sort of country they wanted live in, when threatened by facism in the second world war.

 

Should these men do the same?

I have already asked the point , the reply's from the usual suspect was deafening .

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2015 at 20:15 ----------

 

Do you think that the way the some believes this country mistreats it's citizens is somehow comparable to how Assad mistreated it's citizens?

All the Country's in the middle East [where we over threw the tin pot dictators ]are now worse off than they where before we shoved our noses in due to our quest to secure their oil supplies.

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2015 at 20:19 ----------

 

JFK. Yes we do have a culture of tolerance in this country. But there seems to be an agenda from some people for the islamification of the UK. I personally do not want this and neither do I want the Christianisation or any other religionisation

(If there is such a word) of the UK.as I've said before on here most conflict around the world is caused by religion. The partition of Ireland, India and Cyprus all seem to have happened on religious grounds, and I am against mass immigration to this country because of this, most of the migrants seem to have deeply held religious beliefs.and despite what you may think I am not against any religion, most of which have fundamentally good principles, it's some of the people in those religions who want to foist their own warped views on others that I object to.

The partition of Cyprus is just the same as Russia has done in the Ukraine yet we tolerate the Turks but condemn Russia.

[RonJeremy]

The problem comes when we are forced to be tolerant of the intolerant and intolerable. This is not going to be a happy ending, and I hope the hand-wringing brigade will be on the receiving end of some of it, because they will have ruined this country.

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2015 at 21:07 ----------

 

I also wanted to add to this that the BBC has one again outdone itself with its completely biased, left wing coverage of the migrant crisis. Everything from the shameless use of a photo of a dead child (whose parents reportedly put him on to a boat to flee.... Turkey), and the majority of images being women and children (despite over 80% of the migrants depicting healthy young men), to the complete one sided analysis that has not once taken into account the effects of the incoming flood of migrants to the host nations and its citizens. A definite pro-migration agenda from a supposed impartial, publicly funded broadcaster.

 

It's vomit making isn't it? So biased it's unreal.

[L00b]

Some of our people may have sided with the enemy, but our government never turned against the people.

So, during World War II, the British government did not round up thousands of its own citizens of German, Austrian, or Italian ancestry? Some weren't put into camps, others weren't deported to Canada and Australia?

 

The UK was far from alone in doing that, btw. All countries were at it, and the US prominently so.

I want to ask another question - and it is only a question, I am sitting on the fence on this one until I hear other people's views.

<...>

Should these men do the same?

There was an interesting short piece on Look North tonight, about an Iraqi Kurd who lives in Keighley (IIRC) with his family, and regularly jets over to Northern Syria to lend a hand to the PKK as a frontline combattant.

 

From the newspiece and the footage he brought back and which was broadcast, seems like there's no issue going there and coming back if you're fighting on the good side, and no issue gaining the requisite training and equipment once you get there.

 

In other news (also on the BBC tonight), British drones wiped 3 'famous' British IS recruits. Did we hear congrats on the news or in the Commons? Nope, we only heard about how the UK has conducted illegal State-sanctioned murders according to Harriet Harman, and how the IS recruits' families want an inquiry about the drone strikes. The mind truly boggles.

Edited September 7, 2015 by L00b

[JFKvsNixon]

So, during World War II, the British government did not round up thousands of its own citizens of German, Austrian, or Italian ancestry? Some weren't put into camps, others weren't deported to Canada and Australia?

 

The UK was far from alone in doing that, btw. All countries were at it, and the US prominently so.

 

The UK government still acted within its own laws during the time of war, so yes it interned people, but it repealed those laws as sone as it was practicable after the war. It also needs noting that the security services could not act upon a whim, they were accountable for their actions.

[chalga]

 

[/color]I also wanted to add to this that the BBC has one again outdone itself with its completely biased, left wing coverage of the migrant crisis. Everything from the shameless use of a photo of a dead child (whose parents reportedly put him on to a boat to flee.... Turkey), and the majority of images depicting women and children (despite over 80% of the migrants being healthy young men), to the complete one sided analysis that has not once taken into account the effects of the incoming flood of migrants to the host nations and its citizens. A definite pro-migration agenda from a supposed impartial, publicly funded broadcaster.

 

 

In depth report by the BBC on the negative impact of Syrian refugees in the nearby countries they dispersed too:

 

on Lebanon

 

If you talk to Lebanese, many say they've lost their jobs because Syrians are willing to work for less

 

At the beginning of the war in Syria, Lebanese willingly received Syrian refugees into their own houses, their spare rooms, even their education system. They were sharing everything with them, sharing their whole communities.

 

But as the war in Syria has become more protracted, there has been increasing tension between the communities.

 

In some towns, the population has doubled. This has been putting a lot of pressure on health services, educational services. Waste management is not enough to cope.

 

If you talk to Lebanese, many say they have lost their jobs because Syrians are willing to work for less. Or that they have been evicted because Syrians share housing with many people, and so can afford rents that Lebanese cannot.

 

If you talk to Syrians, they say that some Lebanese have started to say that they deserve what has been happening to them.

 

It is a result of the frustration, and the international community really needs to give aid and assistance to both sides.

Patricia Mouamar

 

Lebanese communications officer for children's charity World Vision

Has spent the last few years travelling all over Lebanon, recording the stories of some of Lebanon's most vulnerable

 

It has been even clearer in schools.

 

One of the main problems comes from the different levels of ability. Many Syrian children have missed out on school for a long time and are struggling to catch up. But the Lebanese children feel left out because of the attention teachers give to the Syrian children. One said to me: "I feel like I'm in a Syrian school."

 

There are space issues too, and there are not enough teachers. Some schools send Lebanese children home after half a day and then teach Syrians in the second half.

 

Wherever you go, in every single corner of Lebanon there are refugees. They are scattered all over, not in one place - this crisis is affecting all of Lebanon. It is a population of four million and you are adding more than a million. That means one in five people are refugees.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-23813975

 

These are generalisations and stereotypes that highlight some of the social dimensions of what is happening.

 

There are tensions in some areas of Jordan, although it certainly does not apply to all areas, for example [the capital] Amman.

 

But when we were up north in a smaller village, one of the older Jordanian men said: "Syrian men come here and Syrian men wear shorts. We don't do that here."

Laura Sheahen

 

In Jordan to cover the Syrian refugee crisis for CARE, the global poverty-fighting organisation

Has six years of experience working in natural disaster or conflict zones for aid agencies

When based in Cairo from 2008-2009, she researched the ongoing Iraqi refugee crisis in Jordan and Lebanon

 

And he said: "Syrian women ride on a motorcycle behind their husbands. That's not done here."

 

Of course, the subtext is that there have not been a lot of motorcycles in that region at all until recently, and so the appearance of them is quite new.

 

Overall, the longer the refugee families stay, the harder it has been on the host community.

 

The issue is basically water. Jordan is very "water poor". Every drop of water is precious and some Jordanians have this perception - whether it is true or not - that Syrians maybe do not conserve water as best they could, in terms of daily habits.

 

So there is resentment about a lot of things.

 

There is a perception that Syrians are willing to be paid less and still do a very good job. And some Jordanians feel priced out of the job market.

 

The other thing is that landlords are raising prices on apartments, so again that affects society. You cannot send your kids to school if you cannot pay the rent, and again Jordanian men who want to get married cannot afford these rents, so they cannot get married and bring a wife to a new apartment.

Edited September 7, 2015 by chalga

[L00b]

The UK government still acted within its own laws during the time of war, so yes it interned people, but it repealed those laws as sone as it was practicable after the war. It also needs noting that the security services could not act upon a whim, they were accountable for their actions.

Are Syrian army combatants 'free agents' acting without sanction, outside any jurisdiction, unencumbered by rules of engagements?

 

Is Syria (or any other country) not acting within its own laws by declaring conscription/military service dodgers to be criminals?

 

I did my national service in France in 1996-1997 in the 4ème Hussards. Just after I got married in the UK, off I went for 12 months, under military jurisdiction. Had I not showed up, South Yorkshire's finest would have hauled me on a extradition warrant issued within a week or two of reporting day. And if SY's finest could not nab me fast enough (-to the French military court's taste), a couple of Foreign Légionnaires would have eventually showed up for the same purpose on the doorstep on some fine morning. Then I'd still do my national service for 12 months. After I'd have served a minimum of 6 months (12 max) in the brig.

 

You'd want to see how Turkey started cracking down on its own military service dodgers earlier this year. In Altinkum last Easter, you'd be at a restaurant eating dinner. Then suddenly the place gets surrounded by uniformed policemen, with two coming through the ranks to check ID (which carries a relevant mention of military service served or not) on all the waiters, kitchen staff <etc.> Any guy they found and suspected of dodging (easy enough: ID with no check for military service? check current age of guy from DoB against max age for military service induction) got cuffed and frog-marched to the meat wagon, then driven straight from the restaurant to the local army barracks for processing and induction. No passing go, no collect £200, no kissy Mum or the Mrs, off they went for two years, probably straight to a frontline posting on the south east border.

Edited September 7, 2015 by L00b

[WiseOwl182]

In depth report by the BBC on the negative impact of Syrian refugees in the nearby countries they dispersed too:

 

on Lebanon

 

If you talk to Lebanese, many say they've lost their jobs because Syrians are willing to work for less

 

At the beginning of the war in Syria, Lebanese willingly received Syrian refugees into their own houses, their spare rooms, even their education system. They were sharing everything with them, sharing their whole communities.

 

But as the war in Syria has become more protracted, there has been increasing tension between the communities.

 

In some towns, the population has doubled. This has been putting a lot of pressure on health services, educational services. Waste management is not enough to cope.

 

If you talk to Lebanese, many say they have lost their jobs because Syrians are willing to work for less. Or that they have been evicted because Syrians share housing with many people, and so can afford rents that Lebanese cannot.

 

If you talk to Syrians, they say that some Lebanese have started to say that they deserve what has been happening to them.

 

It is a result of the frustration, and the international community really needs to give aid and assistance to both sides.

Patricia Mouamar

 

Lebanese communications officer for children's charity World Vision

Has spent the last few years travelling all over Lebanon, recording the stories of some of Lebanon's most vulnerable

 

It has been even clearer in schools.

 

One of the main problems comes from the different levels of ability. Many Syrian children have missed out on school for a long time and are struggling to catch up. But the Lebanese children feel left out because of the attention teachers give to the Syrian children. One said to me: "I feel like I'm in a Syrian school."

 

There are space issues too, and there are not enough teachers. Some schools send Lebanese children home after half a day and then teach Syrians in the second half.

 

Wherever you go, in every single corner of Lebanon there are refugees. They are scattered all over, not in one place - this crisis is affecting all of Lebanon. It is a population of four million and you are adding more than a million. That means one in five people are refugees.

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-23813975

 

 

One article hidden away on the news website does not redress the balance against the daily dose of several pro-migrant articles, TV news reports and radio broadcasts. Furthermore, BBC shutdown all chance to comment on migrant articles all of last week until Cameron caved in, after which they suddenly deemed it safe to allow public opinion of the vast majority (as opposed to the vocal minority) to be posted online. For the one article that was open to comment it goes without saying what opinion was being expressed by all the top rated comments.

[BarryRiley]

The problem comes when we are forced to be tolerant of the intolerant and intolerable. This is not going to be a happy ending, and I hope the hand-wringing brigade will be on the receiving end of some of it, because they will have ruined this country.

 

---------- Post added 07-09-2015 at 21:07 ----------

 

I also wanted to add to this that the BBC has one again outdone itself with its completely biased, left wing coverage of the migrant crisis. Everything from the shameless use of a photo of a dead child (whose parents reportedly put him on to a boat to flee.... Turkey), and the majority of images depicting women and children (despite over 80% of the migrants being healthy young men), to the complete one sided analysis that has not once taken into account the effects of the incoming flood of migrants to the host nations and its citizens. A definite pro-migration agenda from a supposed impartial, publicly funded broadcaster.

 

Don't worry. The BBC is losing the propaganda war. They have simply completely overcooked it and no one is buying it anny longer. Every time I visit their page it's cherry picked pictures of cute children and desperate mothers. And yet it's not working. The average man in the street knows that on the whole they are fit young men.

[natjack]

Is Syria not acting within its own laws by declaring conscription/military service dodgers to be criminals?I

I just read that the Syrian Government have declared an amnesty for the draft dodgers, if they come back and sign on as conscripts, there will be no punishments. After four years fighting IS, they're practically on their knees.

 

Maybe some of the arrogant little bankers at the train station in Hungary, kicking the cops and throwing good food and drinks on the tracks, should think about it. Because they're obviously ripe for some excitement and fighting. Do 'em good!

[I1L2T3]

Then counter the link I posted with proof that Assad was the aggressor and the attacks against him and his supporters was justified. If it is a fact that the majority don't support him then they would have easily overthrown him.

 

Don't change the subject. You said that Syria was a lot like the UK. It absolutely is not in so many ways.