Does anyone know what's happened to this report?

[Anna B]

Don't get overexcited. The UN has a million minor committees set up by all sorts of people with their own agendas. Like the committee that keeps telling the UK to give the Falklands to Argentina but is completely ignored by the UN proper. Your Independant report is full of Chinese whispers and hasn't got any substance.

 

It's shaming that anyone in the UN should think it necessary at all...

[Eric Arthur]

No it isn't. The UN has no mandate on common sense. Anyone is allowed to join.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Eric Arthur

[Mister M]

Just been watching PMQs - an MP raised the findings of a coroner who blamed the death of a man as a direct consequence found fit to work by the government’s disability assessors.

More here:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/21/fit-for-work-assessment-was-trigger-for-suicide-coroner-says

[Anna B]

Just been watching PMQs - an MP raised the findings of a coroner who blamed the death of a man as a direct consequence found fit to work by the government’s disability assessors.

More here:http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/21/fit-for-work-assessment-was-trigger-for-suicide-coroner-says

 

And Cameron just did his usual swerve and dodged the question. He has no answer.

[ECCOnoob]

And Cameron just did his usual swerve and dodged the question. He has no answer.

 

Answer to what? Person chooses to take own life?

 

Person cannot cope with being told they are fit for work and makes their own decision. Hardly a "direct consequence". Harsh as it is, suicidal thoughts does not automatically equal 'unable to work' in any capacity ever again and should be state funded for the rest of their lives.

 

If this sad passing was because of some mental health issue, perhaps the said person should have taken advantage of the many support services available to them. Perhaps the said person would have simply been beyond help in any event.

 

What exactly was he supposed to say. The DWP have said their piece and the matter is closed. If everyone thought the scheme would be cancelled because some people CHOOSE to take their own life then they are very much mistaken. ANY figures which claim a link are purely speculative. Linking a DWP assessment and a death SOMETIME after is not automatically proof of anything.

 

IMO the coroner's wording is totally wrong. Its far too sensationalist. Being fit for work and (subsequently) dying are not incompatible.

Edited October 21, 2015 by ECCOnoob

[Mister M]

Answer to what? Person chooses to take own life?

 

Person cannot cope with being told they are fit for work and makes their own decision. Hardly a "direct consequence". Harsh as it is, suicidal thoughts does not automatically equal 'unable to work' in any capacity ever again and should be state funded for the rest of their lives.

 

If this sad passing was because of some mental health issue, perhaps the said person should have taken advantage of the many support services available to them. Perhaps the said person would have simply been beyond help in any event.

 

What exactly was he supposed to say. The DWP have said their piece and the matter is closed. If everyone thought the scheme would be cancelled because some people CHOOSE to take their own life then they are very much mistaken. ANY figures which claim a link are purely speculative. Linking a DWP assessment and a death SOMETIME after is not automatically proof of anything.

 

IMO the coroner's wording is totally wrong. Its far too sensationalist. Being fit for work and (subsequently) dying are not incompatible.

 

Even before the average 8% cut in mental health services in recent years, mental health service provision is woefully inadequate.

And I'm under no illusion that because some people commit suicide then public policy will change. Like most others I've long known that the unemployed are bottom of priority list for politicians.

The coroner made their decision with the full view of the facts in front of them, it's as near to conclusive as we are ever going to get.

However it's important to point out that many who attempt suicide do so because they have suicidal impulses, and sense they have no control over these impulses. Your highlighting of the word choosing, makes it appear that you are unaware of this, and that the decision to take their life is akin to choosing whether to have tea or coffee.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Mister M

[Anna B]

Answer to what? Person chooses to take own life?

 

Person cannot cope with being told they are fit for work and makes their own decision. Hardly a "direct consequence". Harsh as it is, suicidal thoughts does not automatically equal 'unable to work' in any capacity ever again and should be state funded for the rest of their lives.

 

If this sad passing was because of some mental health issue, perhaps the said person should have taken advantage of the many support services available to them. Perhaps the said person would have simply been beyond help in any event.

 

What exactly was he supposed to say. The DWP have said their piece and the matter is closed. If everyone thought the scheme would be cancelled because some people CHOOSE to take their own life then they are very much mistaken. ANY figures which claim a link are purely speculative. Linking a DWP assessment and a death SOMETIME after is not automatically proof of anything.

 

IMO the coroner's wording is totally wrong. Its far too sensationalist. Being fit for work and (subsequently) dying are not incompatible.

 

I think you'll find mental health support is stretched to the absolute limits, and help is frequently not available, or so long in coming it is of no use. There are waiting lists for most services and many have been cut altogether.

 

This scenario has been repeated in many cases regarding the ATOS assessments.

[Bob Arctor]

ANY figures which claim a link are purely speculative. Linking a DWP assessment and a death SOMETIME after is not automatically proof of anything.

 

2,380 people died within 14 days of an assessment that found them fit for work - that's a very specific time frame, not 'sometime' after. And these are not previously fit and well people, these are people who have been signed off repeatedly, sometimes for up to a year, by their GP (a fully trained health professional) as having limited capability for work due to illness or disability while waiting for their assessment. I work with this system, GPs do not just hand out sick notes like sweets, they use their fully professional judgement to decide whether they think someone in all likelihood is not at that time able to work.

 

For ATOS and the others to get it so wrong so repeatedly suggests either terrible incompetence or outright dishonesty. I always find it interesting, given that it's possible to score various points between 0 and 15 on the Work Capability Assessment, how it's nearly always 0 or 15. That in itself says that something is not right.

[Eric Arthur]

As you say, these are claimed to be sick people.

 

Sick people die more often than people who aren't sick.

People who appear to be fit and well die too.

People drop dead all the time when they haven't been seen by an ATOS medic.

 

So what?

 

You need to understand if there is if there is any increased corrolation between being signed off by ATOS and dropping dead.

 

Without some indication of a correlation this discussion is just political hot air. Can somebody provide a reliable correlation so there's some sort of ground rules to start by?

[Bob Arctor]

 

You need to understand if there is if there is any increased corrolation between being signed off by ATOS and dropping dead.

 

Without some indication of a correlation this discussion is just political hot air. Can somebody provide a reliable correlation so there's some sort of ground rules to start by?

 

You're right. What is needed is an independent review of at least some of these cases so that we know more conclusively whether the DWP was at fault. The government needs to commission this. We only know of the need for this because the information has finally been released. The DWP clearly think there is something to hide or they wouldn't have tried to keep the information from us for so long. You and I are paying for these assessments, we should know whether they are being done properly.