Does anyone know what's happened to this report?

[cgksheff]

Roughly .....

Approximate UK adult mortality rates mean that about 3.5 people will die every 14 days per 1000 adults. (87 per 1000 per year)

How many were assessed by Atos?

If 3 million then something like 10,000 will be expected to die per fortnight.

 

Obviously more detailed rates for different age groups would give a more accurate estimate, but it shouldn't be rocket science.

[Eric Arthur]

An independent scientific data review would be a great start.

 

At the moment people are claiming that the trained medical staff at ATOS keep signing people off who are so sick that they are literally about to drop dead. I don't believe that for a second and anyone who says that has seriously diminished credibility.

 

I could easily be convinced that ATOS medics sometimes get it wrong. Medics make mistakes all the time.

 

I would need real hard evidence that they make more mistakes with DWP clients than anyone else, but evidence is evidence even though there's a complete lack of any real evidence that I've seen. It all looks like politics and a poor grasp of math to me.

[Cyclone]

ATOS have been sacked by the government because they did such a bad job...

 

Have you seen the number of reversals on appeal? That looks like clear evidence that they were getting it wrong.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2015 at 08:55 ----------

 

Roughly .....

Approximate UK adult mortality rates mean that about 3.5 people will die every 14 days per 1000 adults. (87 per 1000 per year)

How many were assessed by Atos?

If 3 million then something like 10,000 will be expected to die per fortnight.

 

Of course a large portion of those who die, don't do so entirely unexpectedly and won't have been well enough to be told to go back to work within the previous fortnight.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2015 at 08:57 ----------

 

Answer to what? Person chooses to take own life?

 

Person cannot cope with being told they are fit for work and makes their own decision. Hardly a "direct consequence".

It doesn't get much more direct than that does it.

 

Harsh as it is, suicidal thoughts does not automatically equal 'unable to work' in any capacity ever again and should be state funded for the rest of their lives.

Nobody said 'ever again and for the rest of their life', but if someone is driven to suicide then they're clearly not capable of work AT THAT TIME.

 

Yes, they should be referred for help with their mental state, that's exactly what should happen instead of telling them to get back to work.

[Mister M]

An independent scientific data review would be a great start.

 

At the moment people are claiming that the trained medical staff at ATOS keep signing people off who are so sick that they are literally about to drop dead. I don't believe that for a second and anyone who says that has seriously diminished credibility.

 

I could easily be convinced that ATOS medics sometimes get it wrong. Medics make mistakes all the time.

 

I would need real hard evidence that they make more mistakes with DWP clients than anyone else, but evidence is evidence even though there's a complete lack of any real evidence that I've seen. It all looks like politics and a poor grasp of math to me.

 

Although this case always stuck in my mind

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/03/27/man-suffers-heart-attack-but-still-cleared-fit-for-work-by-govt/

[Eric Arthur]

I know that you mean well but that isn't critical thinking.

 

ATOS have been sacked by the government because they did such a bad job...

That's an anecdote, it isn't evidence.

 

Have you seen the number of reversals on appeal? That looks like clear evidence that they were getting it wrong.

That's an anecdote, it isn't evidence.

 

Although this case always stuck in my mind

http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/03/27/man-suffers-heart-attack-but-still-cleared-fit-for-work-by-govt/

 

That's an anecdote, it isn't evidence.

[Cyclone]

It's a fact that ATOS were sacked and the reason given was poor performance.

 

The number of reversals is statistical evidence.

 

For your future reference, this is what anecdote means;

 

anecdote

ˈanɪkdəʊt/Submit

noun

a short amusing or interesting story about a real incident or person.

"he told anecdotes about his job"

synonyms: story, tale, narrative, sketch; More

an account regarded as unreliable or hearsay.

"his wife's death has long been the subject of rumour and anecdote"

the depiction of a minor narrative incident in a painting.

 

If I tell you a story about 1 person that I know who was badly treat by ATOS, that's an anecdote. If I refer to public facts about the termination of their contract, or statistically significant numbers of mistakes that are overturned on appeal, those are not anecdotes.

[Eric Arthur]

Let me refer you to what you are responding to once again.

 

An independent scientific data review would be a great start.

 

At the moment people are claiming that the trained medical staff at ATOS keep signing people off who are so sick that they are literally about to drop dead. I don't believe that for a second and anyone who says that has seriously diminished credibility.

 

I could easily be convinced that ATOS medics sometimes get it wrong. Medics make mistakes all the time.

 

I would need real hard evidence that they make more mistakes with DWP clients than anyone else, but evidence is evidence even though there's a complete lack of any real evidence that I've seen. It all looks like politics and a poor grasp of math to me.

 

Now apply that critical thinking to the actual point, not your made up one, or for that matter any anecdote that you care to create. Focus on the final paragraph if it helps you to concentrate.

[Cyclone]

Haven't the medical staff in question spoken out about the pressure they were placed under to sign people off?

 

An independent review would be worthwhile, I agree.

 

But you appear to be ignoring the evidence that does exist because you don't want to believe for ideological reasons that ATOS would create an environment where people were signed off inappropriately due to political pressure.

A good example of cognitive dissonance IMO.

[Eric Arthur]

You're mixing up what ideology is. I am just interested in what is actually happening, for which there is no ideology, whereas ideology is tightly entwined with what people think is happening.

 

Present some kind of substantial and compelling evidence and I will either carefully question it or accept it, but I won't deliberately say that it says something that it doesn't. That's what you do just here where you make the accusation of what you yourself are guilty of.

But you appear to be ignoring the evidence that does exist because you don't want to believe for ideological reasons that ATOS would create an environment where people were signed off inappropriately due to political pressure.

A good example of cognitive dissonance IMO.

 

I want to see evidence that hordes of medical staff are consciously bowing to political or corporate pressure (though which one it is nobody seems to be able to articulate or demonstrate) instead of their professional judgment by signing people off who are literally so ill that they are about to drop dead.

 

I have a crisp £5 that says that nobody can provide that evidence.

Edited October 22, 2015 by Eric Arthur

[Cyclone]

You say there's no ideology, but I disagree. Your political leanings seem clear from your previous posts.

 

So look at the numbers that were successfully appealed. Look at the statements given. Look at the reason the ATOS contract was terminated. Look at the investigative journalism that took place.

 

Or as you seem to prefer, just declare that you don't believe it.