Making the poor better off

[RickyM]

Because in May there was no one offering anything different, why is that do you think?

 

It's because what we call 'democracy' in our country is rigged in favour of the corporations and elites. It does not go in our favour and hasn't done for a very long time.

[Vague_Boy]

Take the grocery sector as an example - 75% of food sold in the UK is by the four largest chains.

 

People didn't have to start buying from supermarkets. They did so because they could save money and enjoy greater choice.

 

If you broke up the current supermarket chains into smaller companies, before long one would buy out another and then another, and within a few years, we'd be back to where we are now.

 

Remember the multitude of bus companies after deregulation in 1986? (Perhaps you don't, I'm an old git so I certainly do.)

 

Lots of smaller bus operators, lots of "fair trade" in a "fair market".

 

But people didn't use them, they stuck with the two established firms (SYT and Yorkshire Traction), who eventually swallowed up the smaller operators. They themselves became part of First and Stagecoach respectively.

 

People had the choice and they chose the big firms. Now that's pretty much the only choice.

 

Sound familiar?

 

If you want to try and impose "a fair market with fair trade" don't be too surprised if the general public refuse to cooperate with you.

[unbeliever]

It's because what we call 'democracy' in our country is rigged in favour of the corporations and elites. It does not go in our favour and hasn't done for a very long time.

 

It's not rigged. Everybody has a free vote. Those in power can only try to influence votes, they can't control them.

It's "The worst system apart from all the others".

What do you suggest as an alternative?

[Cyclone]

People didn't have to start buying from supermarkets. They did so because they could save money and enjoy greater choice.

 

If you broke up the current supermarket chains into smaller companies, before long one would buy out another and then another, and within a few years, we'd be back to where we are now.

 

Remember the multitude of bus companies after deregulation in 1986? (Perhaps you don't, I'm an old git so I certainly do.)

 

Lots of smaller bus operators, lots of "fair trade" in a "fair market".

 

But people didn't use them, they stuck with the two established firms (SYT and Yorkshire Traction), who eventually swallowed up the smaller operators. They themselves became part of First and Stagecoach respectively.

 

People had the choice and they chose the big firms. Now that's pretty much the only choice.

 

Sound familiar?

 

If you want to try and impose "a fair market with fair trade" don't be too surprised if the general public refuse to cooperate with you.

 

SYT only existed of course because many smaller bus companies were amalgamated under council control sometime in the 60's or 70's.

Booth and Fisher for example became the council bus depot at Halfway, and then part of SYT when it was deregulated and finally part of First Group before the garage was closed to save costs by centralising at the Rotherham and Sheffield bus garages.

[truman]

Because in May there was no one offering anything different, why is that do you think?

 

Because the parties realise what people will vote for..

[banjodeano]

Because the parties realise what people will vote for..

 

And that is exactly why labour got thrashed... There was no alternative.. Tory or Tory.. Take your pick

[truman]

And that is exactly why labour got thrashed... There was no alternative.. Tory or Tory.. Take your pick

 

So if the parties think that only Tory/Tory lite policies will get you voted in how will a Corbyn led Labour succeed? Genuine question..

[psynuk]

It's because what we call 'democracy' in our country is rigged in favour of the corporations and elites. It does not go in our favour and hasn't done for a very long time.

 

I find myself agreeing with you on this point

but also this

 

Capitalism doesn't cause poverty. The natural state of being is poverty. Capitalism relieves poverty for everyone, to varying extents. Even the poor are a hell of a lot less poor than they would be without capitalism.

 

and this

 

Like it or not the best paid are generally amongst the most skilled in their particular area. Perhaps not the most worthy, but the most able. Remove them and their job won't be done well. If the most skilled jobs aren't done well, everything else falls apart.

 

Social justice can be drastically improved by education. If everybody, no matter what their start in life has the chance to learn the skills they need to do the most productive things in the economy, then these inequalities can be greatly reduced.

 

It seems to be something like a mid point of capitalism has to be reached, or a swing point when the inequality is too much, for too many people to bear that is needed to ignite bottom up change.

Has there ever been an example where the change comes willingly from the top?

Pre election there seemed to be quite a lot of discussion regarding poverty, inequality and talk of change. But it's just not bad enough to incite the kind of unrest needed for anything to happen. Because no matter how you cut it the folks in this country are in incredible comfort, when you compare to others 'below' but within this country alone the folks on the bottom are really worlds apart from those near the top.

 

I'm not sure that equality is ever achievable without real psychological advancement. The instinct to preserve/better oneself is deeply rooted and the idea of equality for all is a bit of pipedream until ironically your in a position to give it to others whilst maintaining your own level of satisfaction.

Another problem of attaining equality is the will to work, and the will to pay over the odds for 'lesser' work.

Communism has the right idea but it's just not going to happen that way, not when it involves humans.

 

I don't think equality is actually attainable in a society that promotes freedom of thought and allows freedom of choice. The best you can hope for is that as the upper echelons of wealth and power are broached, is the minimum levels of comfort and opportunity increased accordingly

 

Ethical/moral proportionality is what we should be talking about.

 

---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:25 ----------

 

Not exactly sure what point RickyM was making about too many big corporations, but the small shops and lone traders have a much better ethos towards their community.

 

That's far too much of a sweeping statement. I can think of plenty of small independent shops and traders/trades that I wouldn't give custom to because they are in many ways self serving and display terrible levels of customer service and prices.

 

---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:30 ----------

 

So if the parties think that only Tory/Tory lite policies will get you voted in how will a Corbyn led Labour succeed? Genuine question..

 

In the same manner as all the rest, by trying to be as close as possible to being everything to everyman. Otherwise you are niche and sidelined like the greens.

Edited September 8, 2015 by psynuk

[banjodeano]

So if the parties think that only Tory/Tory lite policies will get you voted in how will a Corbyn led Labour succeed? Genuine question..

Thats the problem...what the parties think.?? i believe the Labour party are a million miles away from knowing what the party actually stands for, let alone attracting voters. IMO there is very little between them and the Tories, i have heard many political commentators mention this point.

Everyone has to admit that the Corbyn bandwagon has been phenomenal, he has attracted thousands of new people to join the party, the same can not be said of the other three candidates offering the same stuff that saw them get wiped out in May. so why would you want to proceed down that path again?

Yeah people are going to say, the last time they went left was in 1983 and it failed, but that was a whole different situation then, 1983 wasnt a time of austerity, 1983 didnt see Bankers getting us into a mess and getting bailed out, and then shortly afterwards getting huge bonuses whilst we repay their debt, 1983 wasnt a time where corporate companies made billions and paid no tax, whereas everyone else gets chased for every penny..Yeah, times are totally different now, there has never been so many thousands of people who feel so disgruntled and not having a voice, Corbyn is now their voice, so the next question will be, is he just a protest vote? no..!!

 

recent public opinion polls...

• He supports a publicly run NHS, a position supported by 84% of the public.

• He supports the nationalisation of the railways, a position backed by 66% of the public.

• He supports the nationalisation of the energy companies, a position supported by 68% of the public.

• He believes the Royal Mail should be publicly owned, a position supported by 67% of the public.

• He supports rent controls, a position supported by 60% of the public.

• He has long pushed for the withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan, a position favoured by 82% of the public.

 

I am sure there will be many people in this country who are interested in what he proposes, i am also sure he will recoup many of the disaffected voters who left to join the greens or Ukip believing that Labour doesn't represent them any more, i know the media keep stating he will never win in a million years, and the Labour Party get anybody and their grandmother to lambaste him........it just makes you wonder why :suspect:

Perhaps some people are actually starting to get a little worried that he could actually bring the money people to heel, and bring a fairer country for us all to live in :)

[tinfoilhat]

Thats the problem...what the parties think.?? i believe the Labour party are a million miles away from knowing what the party actually stands for, let alone attracting voters. IMO there is very little between them and the Tories, i have heard many political commentators mention this point.

Everyone has to admit that the Corbyn bandwagon has been phenomenal, he has attracted thousands of new people to join the party, the same can not be said of the other three candidates offering the same stuff that saw them get wiped out in May. so why would you want to proceed down that path again?

Yeah people are going to say, the last time they went left was in 1983 and it failed, but that was a whole different situation then, 1983 wasnt a time of austerity, 1983 didnt see Bankers getting us into a mess and getting bailed out, and then shortly afterwards getting huge bonuses whilst we repay their debt, 1983 wasnt a time where corporate companies made billions and paid no tax, whereas everyone else gets chased for every penny..Yeah, times are totally different now, there has never been so many thousands of people who feel so disgruntled and not having a voice, Corbyn is now their voice, so the next question will be, is he just a protest vote? no..!!

 

recent public opinion polls...

• He supports a publicly run NHS, a position supported by 84% of the public.

• He supports the nationalisation of the railways, a position backed by 66% of the public.

• He supports the nationalisation of the energy companies, a position supported by 68% of the public.

• He believes the Royal Mail should be publicly owned, a position supported by 67% of the public.

• He supports rent controls, a position supported by 60% of the public.

• He has long pushed for the withdrawal of British troops from Afghanistan, a position favoured by 82% of the public.

 

I am sure there will be many people in this country who are interested in what he proposes, i am also sure he will recoup many of the disaffected voters who left to join the greens or Ukip believing that Labour doesn't represent them any more, i know the media keep stating he will never win in a million years, and the Labour Party get anybody and their grandmother to lambaste him........it just makes you wonder why :suspect:

Perhaps some people are actually starting to get a little worried that he could actually bring the money people to heel, and bring a fairer country for us all to live in :)

 

The main thing that concerns me is the intelligence of the poll compilers or responders.

 

We aren't in Afghanistan.

 

As for the rest of it, I hope he's got lots of money or magic beans in the pockets of this corduroys or that's a big bill we are going to have to pay. Note "we" not "the rich" or "big business". They'll all bugger off and we will be stuck with the bill. Look at the Greek PM. So far to left its not funny. After the election it was all "no more austerity" and "stuff the Germans". What has Greece got? More austerity, more debt.