Obelix Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Can you point me to de Menezes' self-publicised terrorist messages, videos, credentials and combat footage/photo? Compare apples with apples. Please. According to the news, plenty of oversight was sought and provided prior to pressing the big red button: this was reportedly a planned operation with boatloads of intelligence and the AG consulted about the kill order. There was plenty of those for De Menezes. They just thought he was someone else. That's the problem with mistaken identity - you shoot the wrong person. ---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:35 ---------- A totally different situation . Jean Charles de Menezes was another victim of those who carried out the July 7th bombings in London . No he wasn't. He was illegally killed by the police in the name of yours and my safety. Why was he killed? Because he looked a bit too Arab. Do you have a suntan and go on the Tube a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrea Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 The UK is currently engaged in the killing of ISIS fighters, the justification for this is the huge expense of looking after the people they terrorized killed and displaced, and I don't think it would be right to kill them all apart from the British born ISIS fighters. Treating all ISIS fighters with equal contempt no matter which country they are from is the best policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 There was plenty of those for De Menezes.Really?!? Can I see some, have you a link? Everything I ever saw and read about de Menezes is that he was just a Joe Average foreign student in the wrong place at the wrong time They just thought he was someone else. That's the problem with mistaken identity - you shoot the wrong person.They did indeed insofar as de Menezes is concerned, but there was no mistaken identity in the present case, was there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Really?!? Can I see some, have you a link? You miss the point I perhaps wasn't clear. There was plenty of stuff for the targets of the operation - right up to the failed bombs that they had. As far as the police were concerned De Menezes was one of those people and there was never any doubt that he was a legitimate target. Everything I ever saw and read about de Menezes is that he was just a Joe Average foreign student in the wrong place at the wrong time Of course the truth was rather different. They did indeed insofar as de Menezes is concerned, but there was no mistaken identity in the present case, was there? Wasn't there? How can we tell without appropriate oversight until after the fact? Habeus corpus is a bit pointless when the corpus is just a corpse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Well said. No need for an enquiry. They were our enemy, they paid the price. So, again, if the government defines someone as "enemy" extra judicial executions are acceptable are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamston Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 There was plenty of those for De Menezes. They just thought he was someone else. That's the problem with mistaken identity - you shoot the wrong person. ---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:35 ---------- No he wasn't. He was illegally killed by the police in the name of yours and my safety. Why was he killed? Because he looked a bit too Arab. Do you have a suntan and go on the Tube a lot? He wouldn't have been killed if those terrorists had not carried out those bombings . He also would not have been killed if he had not run away from the Police and if he had not been in the UK illegally . In the aftermath of the London bombings the Police had a very difficult task to protect the innocent public . Jean Charles de Menezes did not deserve to die or did the other 52 victims of those who carried out the London bombings . Alan Henning and David Haines also did not deserve to be murdered in Syria . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 However I would love to ask the apologists for these people. If you believe they are innocent then why were they in Syria and in the sight of a drone? Holidaying? Visiting Relatives? Missionary work? If they were there to fight for ISIS then what's the problem with us taking them out? I suppose problems might include the fact that parliament has not authorised the use of force in Syria and that these were British citizens... I haven't seen any apologists for them, so I'm not sure where you can direct your questions though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 You miss the point I perhaps wasn't clear. There was plenty of stuff for the targets of the operation - right up to the failed bombs that they had. As far as the police were concerned De Menezes was one of those people and there was never any doubt that he was a legitimate target. We're at cross-purposes it seems. I referred originally to the IS British recruits' multifarious self-publicising materials variously posted on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, uploaded to Liveleak and many more over a period of months and years. What I asked you, in reply to your mention of de Menezes, was whether the authorities at the time had any such positively-identifying materials at hand from him. You replied yes ("There was plenty of those for De Menezes"), but perhaps I misread you or you misunderstood my question. De Menezes was probably instrumental in driving ever more and far stricter due diligence in providing oversight, no doubt about that. In the present case, I'm quietly confident they 'murdered' the right targets: based on the target's self-publicising materials, no equivocation or ambivalence about their identity and motivations what-so-ever, and heaps of ELINT for mobile geolocating and facial data for facial recognition software. BTW, what's this "rather different truth" you're on about with de Menezes? Was he later proved to be a jihadi bomber/accomplice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'm just wondering (for all those who question the legality of this action), where is the legality of ISIS? Are they a 'state'?...Nope!...Does anywhere in the world recognise them as a 'state'?..Nope (not that I'm aware of)... What are they? Basically a bunch of thugs occupying land wholesale and ruling by fear and intimidation. What do they want? A home state where they can live in peace and tranquillity?...I think not! A world eradicated of infidels and anyone who opposes their twisted view of life (whatever that is). So the RAF take out 3 of them (two British)! Who chose to go there, who chose to risk their life, in a cause 'they' believe in. That's the chance you take going to a war zone. Did they pose a danger to Britain? Plainly YES. The same as any of them that have gone there. The risk is, they actually come back! They will still hold their 'crank' beliefs, still try to radicalise others, more than likely plot some kind of atrocity on our doorstep. The only question that needs answering, is were they a threat to the UK? Yes they were, and they paid the price for their stupidity. So on the basis that ISIS act illegally according to international law, you think that the UK should also ignore the law? Because that appears to be your argument. ---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:54 ---------- The UK is currently engaged in the killing of ISIS fighters, the justification for this is the huge expense of looking after the people they terrorized killed and displaced, and I don't think it would be right to kill them all apart from the British born ISIS fighters. Treating all ISIS fighters with equal contempt no matter which country they are from is the best policy. The UK is not engaged in killing anyone in Syria, we are not flying combat missions (specifically we are not included in NATO or European airstikes because parliament didn't authorise it), not that many are taking place anyway. ---------- Post added 08-09-2015 at 11:55 ---------- Really?!? They did indeed insofar as de Menezes is concerned, but there was no mistaken identity in the present case, was there? Impossible to say isn't it? The only information we have that these men have been killed is from the government. And they certainly didn't go in person and check on the bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 He wouldn't have been killed if those terrorists had not carried out those bombings . He also would not have been killed if he had not run away from the Police and if he had not been in the UK illegally . In the aftermath of the London bombings the Police had a very difficult task to protect the innocent public . Jean Charles de Menezes did not deserve to die or did the other 52 victims of those who carried out the London bombings . Alan Henning and David Haines also did not deserve to be murdered in Syria . He didn't run from the police. He was in the UK legally. I expect the police not to make mistakes that kill people. I don't think that's an unreasonable request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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