Is the NHS useless?

[sgtkate]

You can repeat that as much as you want, in the absence of evidence it's nothing more than a belief.

 

---------- Post added 02-11-2015 at 13:31 ----------

 

 

It doesn't work because of the placebo effect. It just doesn't work at all and the placebo effect would be just as valid if the doc gave you a pill and pretended it was some new miracle drug.

 

Homeopathy needs the Simon Singh treatment but they are a bit scared of engaging like the chiroquackers did these days :-)

 

That patient has to BELIEVE they are getting treatment that will work. So if you don't believe in homeopathy like any sane person, but do believe in penicillin then the doc could prescribe you fake penicillin. However, if you've had all the meds under the sun and are still unwell and are prepared to try alternative therapies at that point, then homeopathy may prove a more effective placebo than 'real medicine' placebo. Placebos are in your mind so you have to work with that. However, I'd think the NHS could save £3.9m by removing homeopathy and spending £100k educating people that it's complete tripe...

[unbeliever]

That patient has to BELIEVE they are getting treatment that will work. So if you don't believe in homeopathy like any sane person, but do believe in penicillin then the doc could prescribe you fake penicillin. However, if you've had all the meds under the sun and are still unwell and are prepared to try alternative therapies at that point, then homeopathy may prove a more effective placebo than 'real medicine' placebo. Placebos are in your mind so you have to work with that. However, I'd think the NHS could save £3.9m by removing homeopathy and spending £100k educating people that it's complete tripe...

 

Sounds good. Although if people don't already know this after 13 years of school, then they may lack the facility to learn it.

[Bob Arctor]

My mind is open, but has filters. Homeopathy is so ridiculous and inevitably performs so abysmally in trials, that it is absolute madness for the NHS to spend a penny on it.

If it is NHS policy to lie to people and give them bogus treatments in the hope that the placebo effect will sort them out, I suggest that's disgraceful. Even if you disagree you could surely just give them a tic-tac and say it's Lilly the Pink's medicinal compound, or snake oil or something.

 

In some cases, thinking that this treatment is endorsed by the NHS, people will die because they failed to seek actual treatment.

Quack medicine such as this is costs lives. A high profile example of late would be Steve Jobs of Apple fame.

 

How do you feel about SSRIs?

[ANGELFIRE1]

Since I was diagnosed with diabetes 10 years ago I have been under the NHS. I cannot fault their care of me in any way. I am fed up of the NHS knockers who delight in running the service down in any way they can. Why don't they go and live abroad in some country that does not have "free" medical services, bet they would not be knocking our wonderful NHS then.

 

Angel1.

[onewheeldave]

 

 

To blame all mistakes and failures in your life on your illness might satisfy your mind, the implication is that you would otherwise have been perfect in an imperfect world.

I'm not ill- I'm autistic. I don't blame autism for 'all mistakes and failures'. I'm actually quite accomplished in many things, got some very highly developed skills.

 

Everything I've failed at has one common factor- it involves basic social skills. Mine are, in comparison to neurotypicals, crippled. I quite literally lack the necessary neurological hardware.

 

 

 

the implication is that you would otherwise have been perfect in an imperfect world.[b/]

 

No, not perfect. Adequate.

 

 

 

You do the hardworking employees of the NHS who are doing their best for the wide variety of patients they come across a disservice with your criticism.

I do not. They're as much victims as the patients are. Low wages, bad working conditions, and hours wasted on paperwork to fuel an admin system too bloated to be anything but counterproductive, which, they probably realise, is itself the root cause of most of the problem.

 

My criticism is not of the staff, but of the system, and, of apologists for that system.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:36 ----------

 

You can repeat that as much as you want, in the absence of evidence it's nothing more than a belief.

 

Just to be clear, are you of the view that "the vast majority of heart disease is caused by wrong diet and is preventable by right diet.." is not true?

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:41 ----------

 

Apart from the yearly vaccinations I get, the asthma clincs to prevent it worsening, the yearly checks to look for problems before they become bad, the ongoing education/info I get about health eating, etc...no the NHS doesn't do preventative health at all...

 

 

 

 

Like I said, the NHS specialise in symptom management.

 

I don't know much about asthma, I've no idea if the NHS could have done more to prevent yours. But, clearly, your asthma is not a good example of prevention at work.

 

Unlike your asthma though, heart disease is, in the main, entirely preventable, via diet.

 

The NHS do not prevent the thousands of heart attacks that their own research shows are caused by the diets their patients are eating. No, the focus is on symptom management via expensive stents and drugs, with a criminal lack of attention to far more effective (but not profitable) dietary interventions.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:47 ----------

 

 

Oh dear he's invoking Big Pharma as the nasty boogeyman, what a surprise.... it's the new Reds under the bed scare of the century this...

 

 

The only 'invoking' going on here is your tired cliche above. If anyone is seriously of the view that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't have a huge amount of entirely inapropriate influence on medical system decisions that adversley affect the health of billions, then I'll leave them to it

[Orzel]

Since I was diagnosed with diabetes 10 years ago I have been under the NHS. I cannot fault their care of me in any way. I am fed up of the NHS knockers who delight in running the service down in any way they can. Why don't they go and live abroad in some country that does not have "free" medical services, bet they would not be knocking our wonderful NHS then.

 

Angel1.

 

Because you fit the average diabetes patient model.

They have no personalized approach, they do what guidelines written by someone in statistic office tells them.

That is what NHS excels with. Statistic. AVERAGE life expectancy, AVERAGE this, AVERAGE that.

As soon as you don't fit with template any more you are screwed.

And then you hear horror stories that you would have though have no place in modern day Europe. Some of them were unthinkable 50 years ago in eastern Europe.

Many proven modern treatments are not available through NHS because of bureaucratic inertia. There are simply no guidelines to administer them, people are put lethal dosages of pain killers instead. Yes, I have seen it with my own eyes.

[Beauchiefs]

]

I'm not ill- I'm autistic. I don't blame autism for 'all mistakes and failures'. I'm actually quite accomplished in many things, got some very highly developed skills.

 

Everything I've failed at has one common factor- it involves basic social skills. Mine are, in comparison to neurotypicals, crippled. I quite literally lack the necessary neurological hardware.

 

No, not perfect. Adequate.

 

I do not. They're as much victims as the patients are. Low wages, bad working conditions, and hours wasted on paperwork to fuel an admin system too bloated to be anything but counterproductive, which, they probably realise, is itself the root cause of most of the problem.

 

My criticism is not of the staff, but of the system, and, of apologists for that system.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:36 ----------

 

 

 

 

Your own quote stated that you did blame autism for all the mistakes and failures in your life.

The NHS staff need encouraging not dissilusioning with negativity.

A large part of the paperwork is necessary for correct patient care.

[Daven]

Because you fit the average diabetes patient model.

They have no personalized approach, they do what guidelines written by someone in statistic office tells them.

That is what NHS excels with. Statistic. AVERAGE life expectancy, AVERAGE this, AVERAGE that.

As soon as you don't fit with template any more you are screwed.

And then you hear horror stories that you would have though have no place in modern day Europe. Some of them were unthinkable 50 years ago in eastern Europe.

Many proven modern treatments are not available through NHS because of bureaucratic inertia. There are simply no guidelines to administer them, people are put lethal dosages of pain killers instead. Yes, I have seen it with my own eyes.

What was the result of the inquiry started by your complaint about 'people ... put lethal dosages of pain killers' since you claim to have witnessed this first hand.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Daven

[sgtkate]

I'm not ill- I'm autistic. I don't blame autism for 'all mistakes and failures'. I'm actually quite accomplished in many things, got some very highly developed skills.

 

Everything I've failed at has one common factor- it involves basic social skills. Mine are, in comparison to neurotypicals, crippled. I quite literally lack the necessary neurological hardware.

 

No, not perfect. Adequate.

 

I do not. They're as much victims as the patients are. Low wages, bad working conditions, and hours wasted on paperwork to fuel an admin system too bloated to be anything but counterproductive, which, they probably realise, is itself the root cause of most of the problem.

 

My criticism is not of the staff, but of the system, and, of apologists for that system.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:36 ----------

 

 

Just to be clear, are you of the view that "the vast majority of heart disease is caused by wrong diet and is preventable by right diet.." is not true?

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:41 ----------

 

Like I said, the NHS specialise in symptom management.

 

I don't know much about asthma, I've no idea if the NHS could have done more to prevent yours. But, clearly, your asthma is not a good example of prevention at work.

 

Unlike your asthma though, heart disease is, in the main, entirely preventable, via diet.

 

The NHS do not prevent the thousands of heart attacks that their own research shows are caused by the diets their patients are eating. No, the focus is on symptom management via expensive stents and drugs, with a criminal lack of attention to far more effective (but not profitable) dietary interventions.

 

---------- Post added 03-11-2015 at 01:47 ----------

 

The only 'invoking' going on here is your tired cliche above. If anyone is seriously of the view that the pharmaceutical industry doesn't have a huge amount of entirely inapropriate influence on medical system decisions that adversley affect the health of billions, then I'll leave them to it

 

Dave, firstly I cannot believe someone just called you ill for having austism.

 

Secondly, can you name another country where you would have received better care?

[Cyclone]

Like I said, the NHS specialise in symptom management.

And like I said you entirely ignore the massive public health campaigns aimed at changing behaviour to prevent disease.

 

Unlike your asthma though, heart disease is, in the main, entirely preventable, via diet.

The scale of heart disease could be reduced, diabetes would be even more successible to prevention.

 

What's this though? Drs constantly telling people not to over eat, not to consume so much sugar, the government considering a sugar tax, etc, etc...

 

What they can't do, is somehow stop you from eating cake and sitting on the sofa all evening. They're not the boss of you.

 

The NHS do not prevent the thousands of heart attacks that their own research shows are caused by the diets their patients are eating. No, the focus is on symptom management via expensive stents and drugs, with a criminal lack of attention to far more effective (but not profitable) dietary interventions.

These changes need to be made early, not late, and GPs DO tell people to exercise more and eat more healthy food. They are then ignored.