What Has Happened To The Left?

[MikeFrank]

People who go to gay pride marches with banners claiming that 'God hates fags' think they are justified.

People who stand outside the funerals of gay men with banners claiming that 'God hates fags' in sight of the bereaved think they're justified.

Anti Abortion protestors screaming 'Murderer' to women as they leave clinics think they're justified.

 

Yes banning men from attending a talk at a university is puerile and silly, and easy to lampoon as 'political correctness gone mad'. But that 'subtle type of unfairness' you highlighted is outweighed by the grotesque examples of the religious right in America, whose hate includes hanging round graveyards to prey on the bereaved.

 

Although America doesn't have a high profile left, like Northern European countries have - their politics, particularly on the right is infused with religion, and that makes for particularly nasty politics.

 

I think that's an entirely different debate, religion isnt left or right it has followers of all political leanings.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 11:10 ----------

 

One thing I have noticed over the last few years is a type of 'hipster' left that doesn't really seem to know much about politics but will happily 'share' some wishy washy statement about anti-materialism on facebook and then in another post show off their new trainers/ipad/designer (no strength lens) glasses. It seems that there is some kind of false left-trend bandwagon that some people are jumping on.

 

I'm mildly left, by the way.

 

In particular I think young people like to be part of the pack. So, a bit of a generalisation, but most are left and none like to be isolated by a right wing political view.

 

Of course there are differences dependent on the type of school. Private schools will have more of a mix I think...

[Mister M]

It's hard to be "left" once you have an understanding of history and/or economics.

Capitalism is far from perfect, but Socialism is a disaster every time it's tried. Once you realise this, you can't be a socialist. If you're not a socialist, you're no longer classified by those who are, as "left".

I'd be classified as moderate left on essentially every issue, except that I don't believe in socialism. Not because I don't see the virtues of it idealistically, but because I also recognise its vices. More than anything because I know it doesn't work.

It's no good bleating on endlessly about how things would be better and fairer with more socialism. The matter is debatable academically, but it doesn't matter whether it's true or not because it doesn't work.

 

I think that the post war years weren't socialist, but social democratic. To be honest I'd be happy to return to a 'managed capitalism' between capital and labour.

[Berberis]

So are you claiming the Nazis were in fact left wing and socialists?

 

The BNP are a leftwing Facist party. Fascism is not an extreme of either the left or right political spectrum but rather the opposite to libertarianism.

 

The extreme pole of Socialism is Communism while the extreme end of Conservatism is Neo-Liberalism. This is where the term Neo-Nazi comes from, Right wing Nazism. The German Nazis where National Socialists. Why do you think they got on so well with Russia and Stalin. If Germany had not invaded the lands they had promised not to, the Russians and Germany would have divided up Europe and we would not have been able to stop them.

[Alan Ladd]

I'm left wing and I think most right wingers are thick. There's some research somewhere that backs this up.

 

---------- Post added 10-11-2015 at 19:39 ----------

 

 

SNP is left wing. The Ukip have a surprisingly left-wing policy set. It's more left wing than Labour's in many ways.

 

If right wingers are thick how come we have all the money?

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 17:38 ----------

 

The BNP are a leftwing Facist party. Fascism is not an extreme of either the left or right political spectrum but rather the opposite to libertarianism.

 

The extreme pole of Socialism is Communism while the extreme end of Conservatism is Neo-Liberalism. This is where the term Neo-Nazi comes from, Right wing Nazism. The German Nazis where National Socialists. Why do you think they got on so well with Russia and Stalin. If Germany had not invaded the lands they had promised not to, the Russians and Germany would have divided up Europe and we would not have been able to stop them.

 

I think your definition is spot on.

 

I also think you are absolutely right about Hitler invading Russia, it was a stupid thing to do, apparently Stalin did nothing for about a week because he couldn't believe it!

[Mister M]

I think that's an entirely different debate, religion isnt left or right it has followers of all political leanings.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 11:10 ----------

 

 

In particular I think young people like to be part of the pack. So, a bit of a generalisation, but most are left and none like to be isolated by a right wing political view.

 

Of course there are differences dependent on the type of school. Private schools will have more of a mix I think...

 

Indeed it does - but you can't isolate factors like religion in separate compartments - any more than you can divorce gender or race from the debate. I noted that gender and race were factors in the examples that you quoted.

More to the point - gender, race as well as religion all may impact on a person's political views.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 17:48 ----------

 

The BNP are a leftwing Facist party. Fascism is not an extreme of either the left or right political spectrum but rather the opposite to libertarianism.

 

The extreme pole of Socialism is Communism while the extreme end of Conservatism is Neo-Liberalism. This is where the term Neo-Nazi comes from, Right wing Nazism. The German Nazis where National Socialists. Why do you think they got on so well with Russia and Stalin. If Germany had not invaded the lands they had promised not to, the Russians and Germany would have divided up Europe and we would not have been able to stop them.

 

Hang on, I thought that German Communists and Socialists were condemned to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, along with other political prisoners.

So the Nazis can't have got on with Communists and Socialists that well.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mister M

[unbeliever]

Hang on, I thought that German Communists and Socialists were condemned to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, along with other political prisoners.

So the Nazis can't have got on with Communists and Socialists that well.

 

Wrong kind of socialists. Radicals are always fighting amongst themselves.

[Mister M]

Wrong kind of socialists. Radicals are always fighting amongst themselves.

 

So history books, Holocaust Trust, and many other organisations are wrong when they highlighted that in the 1930s and 40s those who weren't, from the Nazi perspective, genetically pure (such as the disabled or gays), the Untermenschen, and political opponents like Communists and Trade Unionists were sent to the concentration camps

Lots of people in politics fight amongst themselves - the Tories did it in the 1990s. Remember John Major's 'ba$tards' (John Redwood, Bill Cash et. al).

I honestly didn't know that the Nazis made a distinction between the right kind, and the wrong kind of Socialists.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mister M

[I1L2T3]

If right wingers are thick how come we have all the money?

 

I didn't say all of them are thick!!

 

The ones at the top of the tree are obviously very switched on.

 

The trick is to gain power and throw scraps to the single-minded folk that become their followers. Deliver the simple messages that push the right buttons. At the same time cement their power and ensure nobody like you Alan will ever, ever be in the 1%. You'll be useful to them though by providing votes and fighting their battles for them. At the same time you'll be encouraged to look down on people less fortunate, and also to follow the pack in attacking whatever group are the current bogeymen.

 

It wasn't always this way. There was a conservatism that was more tuned to the working man/woman and that was less than 50 years ago. Part of the consensus around the welfare state and engaged in battles with Labour over which party could provide the most social housing. It was a brand that attracted huge numbers of working class votes and wasceven moderately successful in Scotland.

 

We should also be asking what has happened to the right!

 

IMO both Labour and the Tories badly lost their way in the last 30 years.

[unbeliever]

So history books, Holocaust Trust, and many other organisations are wrong when they highlighted that in the 1930s and 40s those who weren't, from the Nazi perspective, genetically pure (such as the disabled or gays), the Untermenschen, and political opponents like Communists and Trade Unionists were sent to the concentration camps

Lots of people in politics fight amongst themselves - the Tories did it in the 1990s. Remember John Major's 'ba$tards' (John Redwood, Bill Cash et. al).

I honestly didn't know that the Nazis made a distinction between the right kind, and the wrong kind of Socialists.

 

They were fundamentalist socialists with a thing for eugenics.

That's just the way fundamentalists are. Look at the conflict between different kinds of Muslims.

[Mister M]

I didn't say all of them are thick!!

 

The ones at the top of the tree are obviously very switched on.

 

The trick is to gain power and throw scraps to the single-minded folk that become their followers. Deliver the simple messages that push the right buttons. At the same time cement their power and ensure nobody like you Alan will ever, ever be in the 1%. You'll be useful to them though by providing votes and fighting their battles for them. At the same time you'll be encouraged to look down on people less fortunate, and also to follow the pack in attacking whatever group are the current bogeymen.

 

It wasn't always this way. There was a conservatism that was more tuned to the working man/woman and that was less than 50 years ago. Part of the consensus around the welfare state and engaged in battles with Labour over which party could provide the most social housing. It was a brand that attracted huge numbers of working class votes and wasceven moderately successful in Scotland.

 

We should also be asking what has happened to the right!

 

IMO both Labour and the Tories badly lost their way in the last 30 years.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

 

Certainly prior to 1979 the Conservatives could claim to represent all parts of the UK, gradually that has ebbed away, and their support is now more concentrated.

I think in defeat, Labour tried to emulate the Conservatives in terms of methodology (i.e. the use of marketing and spin, which apparently Michael Foot had no time for), and in terms of policies.

The centre of gravity in the last 30 years has moved rightwards. Particularly with the Globalisation agenda. Though many financial journalists from across the political divide are saying that post 2008, the 'Washington Consensus' is dead. I think it's too early to say what the new consensus will look like - but I'm glad that, at least, Labour have someone that is talking about a different political agenda. It may help shift the debate away from what George Bush Sr. called the 'Voodoo economics' of the Regan / Thatcher era. And shape a new agenda with different priorities.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 18:59 ----------

 

They were fundamentalist socialists with a thing for eugenics.

That's just the way fundamentalists are. Look at the conflict between different kinds of Muslims.

 

I am aware that there has been an attempt by a tiny minority of Conservatives to try and re-brand Hitler as a socialist - maybe out of embarrassment or (more likely) political mischief making.

But if contemporaneous writings, The Holocaust Trust, and many other authoritative sources label him a far right dictator, then as far as I'm concerned I'd rather take the view of serious historians, than with partisan politicians engaging in, at best revisionist history, or at worst, bit of trolling.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Mister M