What Has Happened To The Left?

[WiseOwl182]

I consider myself to be on the left but I strongly support capitalism as the best economic model for us. I believe we can weave elements of socialism into that to mitigate against the extremes of capitalism, and in some ways improve it for the greater good.

 

 

 

Strange. I consider myself to be on the right and I strongly support capitalism as the best economic model for us. I believe we can weave elements of socialism into that to mitigate against the extremes of capitalism, and in some ways improve it for the greater good.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 21:55 ----------

 

I didn't read I1L2T3s post as a put down to others

 

Erm...

 

"The trick is to gain power and throw scraps to the single-minded folk that become their followers. Deliver the simple messages that push the right buttons."

 

 

So people with conservative views are labelled as "followers" of the top 1%, only think how they do because they're gullible, and are "single-minded" [sic?]. As a conservative, I can only take that as an insult, personally.

[I1L2T3]

Rough translation: anyone with conservative views must be thick. Anyone with socialist views is the epitome of intelligence. You've basically just insulted around 51% of the country (minus the top 1%, of course).

 

Or maybe, people have free thought and form different opinions on their own? Maybe that isn't a trait unique only to those who share your viewpoint?

 

No, not at all.

 

A lot of people with right wing views are thick. There's thickos on the left too. I've said that loads of times now.

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 22:02 ----------

 

Strange. I consider myself to be on the right and I strongly support capitalism as the best economic model for us. I believe we can weave elements of socialism into that to mitigate against the extremes of capitalism, and in some ways improve it for the greater good.

.

 

There's nothing strange about that at all

[unbeliever]

I don't seem to fit any of unbelievers nice little categories.

 

I consider myself to be on the left but I strongly support capitalism as the best economic model for us. I believe we can weave elements of socialism into that to mitigate against the extremes of capitalism, and in some ways improve it for the greater good.

 

What I just said there would have most avowed socialists screaming at me but I expect plenty on the Tory left would be quite comfortable with it.

 

So there you go. Not everything is always black and white.

 

You're not on the "left" though. The "left" is socialist.

 

You're just reinforcing my case that labelling historical figures "right" or "left" is meaningless. These terms mean different things to different people. They therefore contain little or no information.

[I1L2T3]

You're not on the "left" though. The "left" is socialist.

 

You're just reinforcing my case that labelling historical figures "right" or "left" is meaningless. These terms mean different things to different people. They therefore contain little or no information.

 

You're proving my point that right wingers see everything in binary terms.

 

You don't have to be an avowed anti-capitalist to hold left wing views.

 

It's best to consider things as a political spectrum where categories blur into each other. There aren't necessarily clearly defined categories and boxes. Sure some boneheads on the left or the right would want to pigeon hole themselves but the vast majority hold a healthy combination of views.

[unbeliever]

You're proving my point that right wingers see everything in binary terms.

 

You don't have to be an avowed anti-capitalist to hold left wing views.

 

It's best to consider things as a political spectrum where categories blur into each other. There aren't necessarily clearly defined categories and boxes. Sure some boneheads on the left or the right would want to pigeon hole themselves but the vast majority hold a healthy combination of views.

 

 

So if being on the left doesn't mean being socialist, what does it mean?

 

Is it a term for a person who is in the habit of labelling people they disagree with politically as "right wing"? I'm starting to think it is.

[Berberis]

Indeed it does - but you can't isolate factors like religion in separate compartments - any more than you can divorce gender or race from the debate. I noted that gender and race were factors in the examples that you quoted.

More to the point - gender, race as well as religion all may impact on a person's political views.

[/color]

 

---------- Post added 12-11-2015 at 17:48 ----------

 

 

Hang on, I thought that German Communists and Socialists were condemned to the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, along with other political prisoners.

So the Nazis can't have got on with Communists and Socialists that well.

 

You again assuming Nazism is opposite in some way. What if I told you, you can have authoritarian and libertarian socialists.

 

The more authoritarian the party is, the less they will tolerate any other political entity that could sate away their power. This is why within Germany the other socialist/communist parties were stamped out while Germany was aligned to the communist Russia. Germany was a one-party state at this time so any other parties would be subject to opposition.

 

I understand why its confusing, and its compounded by the fact the Nazi party was formed as the Pan-German nationalist and anti-Semitic German Workers' Party. It was later renamed to the National Socialist German Workers' Party pursuing a united German and the nationalization of some industries.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Berberis

[I1L2T3]

So if being on the left doesn't mean being socialist, what does it mean?

 

Is it a term for a person who is in the habit of labelling people they disagree with politically as "right wing"? I'm starting to think it is.

 

It simply means being left of the centre point on the political spectrum.

 

It really is an easy concept to grasp. You don't have to be hard right or hard left. You can be somewhere in between and I'd say > 90% of people are that somewhere on between.

[unbeliever]

It simply means being left of the centre point on the political spectrum.

 

It really is an easy concept to grasp. You don't have to be hard right or hard left. You can be somewhere in between and I'd say > 90% of people are that somewhere on between.

 

That doesn't mean anything. It's completely circular.

You've defined the term "left" in terms of the term "left".

 

What do you have to believe to be classified as "left"?

What does it mean?

[I1L2T3]

That doesn't mean anything. It's completely circular.

You've defined the term "left" in terms of the term "left".

 

What do you have to believe to be classified as "left"?

What does it mean?

 

It does mean something but you have to think about it, and it is subjective and hard to measure. What do you have to believe to be considered as being anywhere on the political spectrum? To you a left winger, it seems, must be a socialist with anti-capitalist views.

 

But that is a super-blinkered view that ignores reality. To me to be on the left means accepting that capitalism is the best system, recognising its power to enrich countries and individuals. I want people to be able to own property, do business and use their talents. But O also recognise the potentially destructive power of unchecked capitalism and the need for it to be constrained in some ways. I believe in social justice, equality, reducing economic inequality, the need for welfare, the NHS, universal education, progressive taxation and about our environment.

 

Because of these views I would not find a home in any of the parties in the UK that are considered right wing. The parties that are closest to my views are on the left.

 

Why is this hard for you to grasp?

[unbeliever]

It does mean something but you have to think about it, and it is subjective and hard to measure. What do you have to believe to be considered as being anywhere on the political spectrum? To you a left winger, it seems, must be a socialist with anti-capitalist views.

 

But that is a super-blinkered view that ignores reality. To me to be on the left means accepting that capitalism is the best system, recognising its power to enrich countries and individuals. I want people to be able to own property, do business and use their talents. But O also recognise the potentially destructive power of unchecked capitalism and the need for it to be constrained in some ways. I believe in social justice, equality, reducing economic inequality, the need for welfare, the NHS, universal education, progressive taxation and about our environment.

 

Because of these views I would not find a home in any of the parties in the UK that are considered right wing. The parties that are closest to my views are on the left.

 

Why is this hard for you to grasp?

 

 

Your description puts your own views clearly in the moderate "socialist" camp.

You sound like a Lib Dem.

 

Why didn't you just say that?

Are you uncomfortable with the term socialist?

 

It surely always comes down to what fraction of GDP is collected and then either spent or redistributed by the state.

At the moment it's running at roughly 40%. The changes you describe would probably require putting it up to 50 or 60%.

Since you want policy changes which put it substantially up from the UK norm, I'm going to refer to you as a socialist.

An extreme socialist would have it at close to 100%. An extreme capitalist would have it at close to 0%.

 

I'm still not entirely happy with this answer. You say nothing on social matters as far as I can see. I've started a poll hopefully to get other opinions.