What Has Happened To The Left?

[Anna B]

It does mean something but you have to think about it, and it is subjective and hard to measure. What do you have to believe to be considered as being anywhere on the political spectrum? To you a left winger, it seems, must be a socialist with anti-capitalist views.

 

But that is a super-blinkered view that ignores reality. To me to be on the left means accepting that capitalism is the best system, recognising its power to enrich countries and individuals. I want people to be able to own property, do business and use their talents. But O also recognise the potentially destructive power of unchecked capitalism and the need for it to be constrained in some ways. I believe in social justice, equality, reducing economic inequality, the need for welfare, the NHS, universal education, progressive taxation and about our environment.

Because of these views I would not find a home in any of the parties in the UK that are considered right wing. The parties that are closest to my views are on the left.

 

Why is this hard for you to grasp?

 

Agree entirely, but it does seem particularly difficult for right wingers to grasp it. As someone has said, they see everything in black and white, - 'if you're not with us, you're against us' view if the world. And I think it does tend to drift into bullish, bullying behaviour.

 

Incidently, the words in bold could have been taken out of Jeremy Corbyn's mouth (I know because I heard him say it.) But as usual, the right, with the help of the Murdoch press, are intent on portraying him as a rabid Marxist.

[unbeliever]

Agree entirely, but it does seem particularly difficult for right wingers to grasp it. As someone has said, they see everything in black and white, - 'if you're not with us, you're against us' view if the world. And I think it does tend to drift into bullish, bullying behaviour.

 

Incidently, the words in bold could have been taken out of Jeremy Corbyn's mouth (I know because I heard him say it.) But as usual, the right, with the help of the Murdoch press, are intent on portraying him as a rabid Marxist.

 

You're all socialists.

Anna B, I1L2T3 and Corbyn.

You're not extreme, hard line, looney socialists; but you are socialists.

Even Corbyn is a moderate by historical standards even if he looks radical by modern UK standards.

 

Why don't you just say that?

As I suspected all along. Left means in support of more socialism and less capitalism than the status quo.

I never suggested that all socialists are radical Marxists.

[Berberis]

So if being on the left doesn't mean being socialist, what does it mean?

 

It does, unless the original statement was "one the left of" and then pinpointing a person/group that is consider to be right wing. This way you can be on the left of said person/group but still be right wing. Like Labour in the 2000's. They were on the left of the Tory's but were still considered right wing.

 

Being "on the left" on its own means socialist, simple.

[unbeliever]

It does, unless the original statement was "one the left of" and then pinpointing a person/group that is consider to be right wing. This way you can be on the left of said person/group but still be right wing. Like Labour in the 2000's. They were on the left of the Tory's but were still considered right wing.

 

Being "on the left" on its own means socialist, simple.

 

Then why don't they say that?

If Anna B or I1L2T3 would just say that "left" means either in absolute or relative terms "socialist" I'd have been quite content as that was always my understanding.

 

Instead I've got them congratulating each other for vague, circular reasoning that only seems to make sense between the 2 of them and expressing surprise and dismay that I find their answers unsatisfactory.

I1L2T3 implied that there was something wrong with me because I questioned his definition of "left" which defined it in terms of "left".

[Mister M]

You're all socialists.

Anna B, I1L2T3 and Corbyn.

You're not extreme, hard line, looney socialists; but you are socialists.

Even Corbyn is a moderate by historical standards even if he looks radical by modern UK standards.

 

Why don't you just say that?

As I suspected all along. Left means in support of more socialism and less capitalism than the status quo.

I never suggested that all socialists are radical Marxists.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't particularly like being pigeon holed or put under the microscope & having my views examined.....I think political beliefs are as much emotive as they are of the intellect.

[unbeliever]

Speaking for myself, I don't particularly like being pigeon holed or put under the microscope & having my views examined.....I think political beliefs are as much emotive as they are of the intellect.

 

That sounds like an excellent way of making really bad decisions.

 

The debate between the political moderates in the UK is to a first approximation between those who think more socialism will improve the lives of the bulk of the UK people and those who think less socialism will have that effect.

 

If you show up and say, "I don't care which will work better, I feel socialist so that's what we'll do", then you're just going to make a mess.

 

Maybe that's what happened to Gordon Brown...

[colinsdog]

being on the left means holding views of a socialist slant - this statement maybe true.

But it's entirely up to the individual to define exactly what being on the left means to them - or even if they recognise the left-right spectrum at all.

 

its like saying all leftys agree with each other in some big homegenous group - when this is patently not the case.

 

its not a 'black and white' answer.

 

---------- Post added 13-11-2015 at 14:10 ----------

 

That sounds like an excellent way of making really bad decisions.

 

The debate between the political moderates in the UK is to a first approximation between those who think more socialism will improve the lives of the bulk of the UK people and those who think less socialism will have that effect.

 

If you show up and say, "I don't care which will work better, I feel socialist so that's what we'll do", then you're just going to make a mess.

 

Maybe that's what happened to Gordon Brown...

 

Capitalism can exist within a socialist framework or ideology.

Corbyn has never said let's do away with private business for example. And in fact champions entrepreneurship and innovation and making profit.

 

I know that form of flexible thinking is hard to grasp when you hold such rigid views of the world.

[unbeliever]

Capitalism can exist within a socialist framework or ideology.

Corbyn has never said let's do away with private business for example. And in fact champions entrepreneurship and innovation and making profit.

 

I know that form of flexible thinking is hard to grasp when you hold such rigid views of the world.

 

Point me to where I said anything like that.

[colinsdog]

Point me to where I said anything like that.

 

Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post

You're all socialists.

Anna B, I1L2T3 and Corbyn.

You're not extreme, hard line, looney socialists; but you are socialists.

Even Corbyn is a moderate by historical standards even if he looks radical by modern UK standards.

 

 

-----

 

And I merely pointed out, the pigeon-holing to fit your rigid view of the world.

[unbeliever]

Originally Posted by unbeliever View Post

You're all socialists.

Anna B, I1L2T3 and Corbyn.

You're not extreme, hard line, looney socialists; but you are socialists.

Even Corbyn is a moderate by historical standards even if he looks radical by modern UK standards.

 

 

-----

 

And I merely pointed out, the pigeon-holing to fit your rigid view of the world.

 

I'm not "pigeon-holing". I'm certainly not rigid. The very post you quote to try and make the ridiculous claim that I'm "rigid" acknowledges quite clearly the diversity within socialism without a hint of criticism.

 

The moderate socialists on this thread have been trying to escape a definition of "left" which includes the word "socialist" completely unnecessarily.

 

Socialists are a broad church, like any large political grouping.

They go all the way from Marxists (the state should run everything) to far more moderate views that the state should do just a little more. But they're all socialists.

The same is true of capitalists/libertarians. All the way from moderates (the state should do a little less) to extremists (the state should not exist).

 

This all started because of the socialists extremely deceitful attempts to define certain historical figures which all right minded people hate to their cores as "right" when in fact they're also socialists. They're nothing like the socialists on this thread, and they're nothing like the vast bulk of socialists in the world, but that doesn't magically turn them from socialists into capitalists. These genocidal maniacs perverted socialism and are quite rightly condemned by all sides for doing so.

 

It's important to understand and recognise this because you should learn that whilst socialism certainly has virtues, it is highly susceptible to this kind of perversion and therefore great caution is required in its application.

 

Call the worst people in history "far right" all you want. Doesn't make it true. And when you do it with people who make it so obvious that they were trying to be socialists that they even put in their names, you look ridiculous.