What does it mean to be "left" politically?

[unbeliever]

In this ever more extreme incarnation of right-wing politics... yes. And probably a communist and Stalinist too.

 

A communist wants total socialism. A Stalinist is prepared to support genocide to achieve it.

I1L2T3 is neither.

[I1L2T3]

You want both. You want socialism and capitalism. You want more socilaism than we have now and therefore less capitalism, but not total socialism. Ergo: moderate socialist.

It's really not that complicated. You're trying to make it complicated and implying that there's something wrong with me because I can still see that it's simple.

 

Now 12 votes to 1.

Perhaps I'm not the one who needs educating.

 

I think you do need educating to be fair. I'll say it again: I'm a supporter of capitalism, not socialism.

 

The level of my support for social intervention to mitigate against the worst of capitalism is the only major difference between me and many on the right. And even those differences are going to place me, politically, not too far from the centre.

[unbeliever]

I think you do need educating to be fair. I'll say it again: I'm a supporter of capitalism, not socialism.

 

The level of my support for social intervention to mitigate against the worst of capitalism is the only major difference between me and many on the right. And even those differences are going to place me, politically, not too far from the centre.

 

You support both socialism and capitalism. That's what makes you a moderate.

 

13 votes to 1.

I don't understand why you're still arguing.

 

This thread wasn't supposed to be about you personally. I thought from the other thread that there was some general confusion about whether "left" necessarily meant "socialism". Turns out there isn't and my original understanding was correct.

I'm content to consider the matter resolved.

[I1L2T3]

Yes. .

 

That includes David Cameron then.

 

He backs a progressive taxation system, lifting the personal tax allowance year on year.

 

He has ringfenced funding for the NHS

 

He backs universal education

 

He has intervened in the economy by raising the minimum wage.

 

He must be a socialist!!

 

---------- Post added 14-11-2015 at 10:48 ----------

 

You support both socialism and capitalism. That's what makes you a moderate.

 

13 votes to 1.

I don't understand why you're still arguing.

 

This thread wasn't supposed to be about you personally. I thought from the other thread that there was some general confusion about whether "left" necessarily meant "socialism". Turns out there isn't and my original understanding was correct.

I'm content to consider the matter resolved.

 

No, I think you're still confused. You think David Cameron is a socialist.

[unbeliever]

That includes David Cameron then.

 

He backs a progressive taxation system, lifting the personal tax allowance year on year.

 

He has ringfenced funding for the NHS

 

He backs universal education

 

He has intervened in the economy by raising the minimum wage.

 

He must be a socialist!!

 

 

We're almost all capitalists and socialists in the broader sense. Cameron is reducing the size of the state, but only gradually. That makes him a moderate capitalist.

Within the context of UK politics a socialist wants more socialism (Labour, Lib Dems) and a capitalist wants less socialism. Nobody in the main stream wants no socialism or total socialism.

 

---------- Post added 14-11-2015 at 10:52 ----------

 

No, I think you're still confused. You think David Cameron is a socialist.

 

In the UK context, no. In the US context, he would be.

 

A socialist in the UK context wants more socialism than we have now. Cameron is providing us with less. Although not a lot less.

[Mister M]

Yes. .

 

I ask, not to catch you out, but to say that many people who would consider themselves right wing (such as MPs and Ministers in the Conservative Party) also not only believe in, but practice those things.

 

My own view is that politics and ideas can't be reduced to tick boxes - is a mix between lots of factors - intellectual, emotive and instinctive.

I'm not saying that you're totally wrong in your approach, you're not - the descriptors in the poll above are useful.

But I'm sure you would accept that lots of people from socialist to capitalist want 'fairness' - they possibly disagree with what's fair. Similarly many people on the left don't like the idea of a big state, but much prefer power that is devolved at its most local level. Many socialists and Conservatives sign up to the idea that people should be allowed to be different

[I1L2T3]

We're almost all capitalists and socialists in the broader sense. Cameron is reducing the size of the state, but only gradually. That makes him a moderate capitalist.

Within the context of UK politics a socialist wants more socialism (Labour, Lib Dems) and a capitalist wants less socialism. Nobody in the main stream wants no socialism or total socialism.

 

Very convenient.

 

I give up

[unbeliever]

Very convenient.

 

I give up

 

Awesome. Thanks for playing.

[Mister M]

Not at all. If I tried hard enough I could find speeches made by Blair and Cameron (neither of them socialists) supporting all of that list. It's too woolly. To be socialist in my eyes it would be generous social security, total free healthcare (ivf, dental, free prescriptions) and free university education. Progressive is a cop out, say high taxation.

 

I was using the language of Unibeliever, as used in his / her poll.

[unbeliever]

I ask, not to catch you out, but to say that many people who would consider themselves right wing (such as MPs and Ministers in the Conservative Party) also not only believe in, but practice those things.

 

My own view is that politics and ideas can't be reduced to tick boxes - is a mix between lots of factors - intellectual, emotive and instinctive.

I'm not saying that you're totally wrong in your approach, you're not - the descriptors in the poll above are useful.

But I'm sure you would accept that lots of people from socialist to capitalist want 'fairness' - they possibly disagree with what's fair. Similarly many people on the left don't like the idea of a big state, but much prefer power that is devolved at its most local level. Many socialists and Conservatives sign up to the idea that people should be allowed to be different

 

I find myself in total agreement with your last paragraph.

 

Local government is part of the state. It's all government. What matters is the total size of government.

 

Government can promote equity type fairness by removing taxes from the poor. That's what Cameron has done. There's more that could be done on that front. VAT, NI, corporation tax and other taxes are not very progressive.

Labour thought it was a good idea to tax the poor and then give them the money back in benefits as if they were doing them a favour. That's proper socialism.