What does it mean to be "left" politically?

[I1L2T3]

It was become patently obvious from your responses and everybody else that more left means more socialism and more right means less socialism. I don't know what you're still arguing about. If you're just going to stick to your position come what may then this is going to take a really long time.

 

This of course also validates my long held view that the term "far right" is nonsense as most of the organisations described in this way are far more socialist than most people who describe themselves as "left".

 

I'm not arguing as it happens, just trying to break you free from your simplistic socialism vs capitalism model.

 

You hold what you consider to be socialist views yourself. You call yourself a moderate capitalist which means you know that your support for capitalism is somehow constrained by what you consider to be socialist ideals.

 

You know you are on a political spectrum of some kind. My guess is you put yourself somewhere moderately to the right and I respect that. You know that I place myself slightly left of centre. But that does not give you the right to label me as a socialist with all the negative connotations, in terms of UK politics, that that brings. It does however give me the right to say that I am on the left.

 

Now, on to where your confusion lies.

 

You are making the mistake of assuming that all ideas that you regard as socialist are the exclusively under the ownership of the hard left. And that anybody who holds those views just has political views that are a watered down version of those ideas that you see as owned by the hard left.

 

You are wrong. Very wrong. The idea of for example an NHS is not exclusively owned by the hard left. It's a concept popular right across the political spectrum. It engenders political cvonsensus in the UK. No one group or party owns it although that doesn't stop parties trying to claim it as their own, like Labour and the Tories repeatedly do.

 

So that's your problem. You see things in polarised ways and anything in between as a watering down of one or the other polarised view. It's really a very flawed way to look at things.

[unbeliever]

I'm not arguing as it happens, just trying to break you free from your simplistic socialism vs capitalism model.

 

You hold what you consider to be socialist views yourself. You call yourself a moderate capitalist which means you know that your support for capitalism is somehow constrained by what you consider to be socialist ideals.

 

You know you are on a political spectrum of some kind. My guess is you put yourself somewhere moderately to the right and I respect that. You know that I place myself slightly left of centre. But that does not give you the right to label me as a socialist with all the negative connotations, in terms of UK politics, that that brings. It does however give me the right to say that I am on the left.

 

Now, on to where your confusion lies.

 

You are making the mistake of assuming that all ideas that you regard as socialist are the exclusively under the ownership of the hard left. And that anybody who holds those views just has political views that are a watered down version of those ideas that you see as owned by the hard left.

 

You are wrong. Very wrong. The idea of for example an NHS is not exclusively owned by the hard left. It's a concept popular right across the political spectrum. It engenders political cvonsensus in the UK. No one group or party owns it although that doesn't stop parties trying to claim it as their own, like Labour and the Tories repeatedly do.

 

So that's your problem. You see things in polarised wass and anything in between as a watering down of one or the other polarised view. It's really a very flawed way to look at things.

 

I did ask this earlier.

You find that the term "socialist" has negative connotations. I suspected as much, but I wasn't expecting it as I've never thought of to that way.

[colinsdog]

Despite unbeliever's superb treatise on the subject, socialism is a term referring to the ownership and control of the means of production, which was developed (though didn't originate) during the upheaval of the Industrial Revolution.

 

If you believe in the workers' ownership of the means of production or, at least, democratic control of the means of production then you might be a socialist, otherwise you're probably not.

 

So all lefts are not by definition also socialists.

 

This is what i was trying to explain to unbeliever. But he doesnt get it.

[unbeliever]

So all lefts are not by definition also socialists.

 

This is what i was trying to explain to unbeliever. But he doesnt get it.

 

Neither, it seems, do another 18 of the 21 people who've voted.

 

Consider for a moment, given the poll results, that maybe you've got this one wrong.

Perhaps, despite what you think, socialist does not necessarily mean radical socialist who wants everything nationalised.

[colinsdog]

The railway infrastructure is already owned by the state. And it is that which is the source of the high prices and poor reliability. The pricing of tickets is heavily regulated by the state. The private companies involved are effectively contractors.

 

I've singularly unimpressed with the NHS. I'm all for the state ensuring universal healthcare but I'm not convinced that nationalising almost the whole thing is the best way.

 

I'm glad we've finally agreed that "left" means "socialist".

 

Left to right is a spectrum of views. You might argue even cameron has some socialist values.

 

---------- Post added 15-11-2015 at 13:30 ----------

 

Neither, it seems, do another 18 of the 21 people who've voted.

 

The poll is loaded.

[unbeliever]

Left to right is a spectrum of views. You might argue even cameron has some socialist values.

 

I already have said as much.

 

This doesn't mean anything to me. What is the magical thing about the term "left" which distinguishes it from the term socialist?

How is it that left is part of a spectrum and socialist isn't?

[colinsdog]

Neither, it seems, do another 18 of the 21 people who've voted.

 

Consider for a moment, given the poll results, that maybe you've got this one wrong.

Perhaps, despite what you think, socialist does not necessarily mean radical socialist who wants everything nationalised.

 

Take out the 'socialism' part of the poll.

Its clearly loaded to produce a certain outcome.

[unbeliever]

 

The poll is loaded.

 

Sorry, I didn't have time to get the electoral commission to review it.

 

In what way is it loaded?

[colinsdog]

I already have said as much.

 

This doesn't mean anything to me. What is the magical thing about the term "left" which distinguishes it from the term socialist?

How is it that left is part of a spectrum and socialist isn't?

 

isnt socialism the workers owning means of production?

[unbeliever]

Take out the 'socialism' part of the poll.

Its clearly loaded to produce a certain outcome.

 

So, despite the fact that I and 18 other people out of 21 think that the answer is "socialist" you think that this answer should be excluded from the poll.

I would certainly agree that doing so would change the result.

 

---------- Post added 15-11-2015 at 13:33 ----------

 

isnt socialism the workers owning means of production?

 

Radical socialism is. In radical socialism the people (through the state) own everything.