Shootings and explosions in Paris

[Harrystottle]

If you want to beat ISIS, or Al Quaeda, or Boko Haram, or the Taliban, or Al Shabaab you have to look at where the ideology and the money is coming from.

 

Which is Saudi Arabia. Our friends in the middle east who sell us oil and who buy arms from us. The same Saudi Arabia whose citizens flew the planes in the 9/11 attacks, who produced Osama Bin Laden and who have given the world the hardline Wahhabism version of Islam.

 

The west is compromised and the Saudis realise that.

 

Also you have to look at people who have been advisers to American Presidents, people like Michael Leeden. One of Mr Leeden's most famous sayings is that "If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronised, it is the Middle East today."

 

There is a bit about him and others like him here.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1406/S00175/lebanonisation-of-iraq.htm

[Branyy]

There is an undeniable link between Islam and violence, a cursory glance at scripture and history will tell you that.

 

However, I am nit sure I can name an Islamic country with a more violent disposition than our own. Can anyone help?

 

Disposition? I'm more concerned about actual violence within the country. So in terms of e.g. human rights and overall crime rates, I dare to say that we stand BETTER than ANY Islamic country.

[runningman1]

Disposition? I'm more concerned about actual violence within the country. So in terms of e.g. human rights and overall crime rates, I dare to say that we stand BETTER than ANY Islamic country.

 

Do you know much about our history? Also, why talk about crime rates? You are changing the argument.

[999tigger]

If you want to beat ISIS, or Al Quaeda, or Boko Haram, or the Taliban, or Al Shabaab you have to look at where the ideology and the money is coming from.

 

Which is Saudi Arabia. Our friends in the middle east who sell us oil and who buy arms from us. The same Saudi Arabia whose citizens flew the planes in the 9/11 attacks, who produced Osama Bin Laden and who have given the world the hardline Wahhabism version of Islam.

 

The west is compromised and the Saudis realise that.

 

Also you have to look at people who have been advisers to American Presidents, people like Michael Leeden. One of Mr Leeden's most famous sayings is that "If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronised, it is the Middle East today."

 

There is a bit about him and others like him here.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1406/S00175/lebanonisation-of-iraq.htm

 

 

From the Economist

 

Unlike other terrorist groups, including al-Qaeda in Iraq, IS largely funds itself rather than relying on rich supporters (despite various versions of a conspiracy theory in the region that America, Iran or Israel bankrolls the group). Although IS receives donations, especially from Gulf-based financiers, they are a relatively insignificant contributor to its coffers. Instead the bulk of its money comes from oil revenues from fields under its control in western Iraq and eastern Syria. American officials estimated that it was making $2m a day from oil before air strikes started (locals reckon it was more) but in December an official said the strikes, some of which have been against oil facilities in Syria, meant the group's oil revenues had “significantly” dropped. Controlling so much land also helps IS make money from extortion and taxing people in the areas it controls. Like other jihadist groups, it has learned that kidnapping can be profitable. IS earned at least $20m last year from ransoms paid for hostages, including several French and Spanish journalists.

 

So not really.

 

---------- Post added 16-11-2015 at 17:59 ----------

 

There is an undeniable link between Islam and violence, a cursory glance at scripture and history will tell you that.

 

However, I am nit sure I can name an Islamic country with a more violent disposition than our own. Can anyone help?

 

Well it depends what you mean by a violent disposition and what you mean by it.

[Harrystottle]

From the Economist

 

 

 

So not really.

 

So how did ISIS get started then? They did not spring from the ground fully formed.

 

Someone had to pay a lot of money for the Toyotas with the 20mm cannons bolted to the truck bed.

 

Did they win the lottery maybe?

Edited November 16, 2015 by Harrystottle

[Branyy]

Do you know much about our history? Also, why talk about crime rates? You are changing the argument.

 

I do a little but I'm more interested in present

And why talk about crime rates? As I said, I'm more concerned about violence in the country and safety is important to me (and to everyone else, I guess). If you think that violent disposition (whatever you mean by that) is more important, please explain.

[runningman1]

I do a little but I'm more interested in present

And why talk about crime rates? As I said, I'm more concerned about violence in the country and safety is important to me (and to everyone else, I guess). If you think that violent disposition (whatever you mean by that) is more important, please explain.

 

A disposition is a tendency towards something, in this case violence. We export violence and death around the world. My claim was that although Islam is undeniably violent, so are we.

[lottiecass]

A disposition is a tendency towards something, in this case violence. We export violence and death around the world. My claim was that although Islam is undeniably violent, so are we.

 

When was the last time we poured petrol on a pow then put him in a cage and set him on fire? Not beheaded anyone recently,or had any mass hangings.We do not want them here so do you know another way of stopping them?

[runningman1]

When was the last time we poured petrol on a pow then put him in a cage and set him on fire? Not beheaded anyone recently,or had any mass hangings.We do not want them here so do you know another way of stopping them?

 

You can't cite the absence of very particular and narrow forms of violence and use it as proof of non violence. When was the last time the Muslims partitioned a country causing hundreds of thousands of deaths, or sold billions of pounds worth of arms? Or pulled down a regime to install their own?

 

Name one Islamic country that has a bloodier history than our own.

[Branyy]

A disposition is a tendency towards something, in this case violence. We export violence and death around the world. My claim was that although Islam is undeniably violent, so are we.

 

We might argue about justifying individual military actions abroad, but there's always a difference between military actions and terrorism. And even without involvement of outside countries, Islamic countries are violent inside just by themselves. That's a fact.