ghost rider Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 Yes, and while I agree pretty much with what you're saying, I don't understand what the solution is that you're proposing. How do we "win a battle of hearts and minds"? Just keep having civilians killed and turning the other cheek to show how civilised we are? I don't think that will work - before we know it the Caliphate will be stretching into Europe. By the way, I notice today that they've killed a Chinese hostage and their leader isn't too pleased about it. Amazing to have a potential scenario of America, Russia and China all acting in coalition. My feelings exactly,we cannot wait to be picked off one by one.Everytime a terrorist attack happens we all condemn it and have three days mourning, link arms and some pray(if you believe in that sort of thing)in an act of defiance and then wait to be attacked again.It is like Groundhog day all the time.Hats off to France and Russia for acting instead of just talking and condemning.They left the Paris leader of the attacks looking like a colander today exactly what he did a week ago to innocent people.The right response by france has far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 My feelings exactly,we cannot wait to be picked off one by one.Everytime a terrorist attack happens we all condemn it and have three days mourning, link arms and some pray(if you believe in that sort of thing)in an act of defiance and then wait to be attacked again.It is like Groundhog day all the time.Hats off to France and Russia for acting instead of just talking and condemning.They left the Paris leader of the attacks looking like a colander today exactly what he did a week ago to innocent people.The right response by france has far as I am concerned. We are not getting picked off one by one. Is this sort of frenzied hyperbole that ISIS wants in order to polarise the world between the West and Muslims. You are doing their work for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I haven't suggested that we negotiate with ISIS. This is the second time in a matter of a couple of pages that I've had to say this. Re-read the pages and you'll understand better my position. Nor did I. The suggestion I made which might have given rise to the confusion was that we should talk and think more and use violence less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost rider Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 We are not getting picked off one by one. Is this sort of frenzied hyperbole that ISIS wants in order to polarise the world between the West and Muslims. You are doing their work for them. I will leave it at that but I suspect your way is not the way it is going to happen.Russia ,china ,france and America and numerous other countries are ready to throw the kitchen sink at them.I respect your stance and your point of view but we will just have to agree to disagree.Time for my sleep now long day at work tomorrow,good night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 I will leave it at that but I suspect your way is not the way it is going to happen.Russia ,china ,france and America and numerous other countries are ready to throw the kitchen sink at them.I respect your stance and your point of view but we will just have to agree to disagree.Time for my sleep now long day at work tomorrow,good night. I suspect too that your right about how it's going to pan out. It's been a good discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 (edited) I'm just going to repost edited versions of few of my previous posts: I think that makes my point. If all thats your point. 1. its a bit about hearts and minds, but when it boils down to it, its about power and territory. To get hearts and minds they need power and that means territory, so negotiating with them is a bit pointless because will never remain within their own territory but will seek to expand. 2. The west cant afford to let them get to Israel or the Gulf states. 3. We wont sacrifice principles, but I can see if they want conflict they can have a real war and not just from the air. the west is capable of projecting far more power than they realise, it just has to get annoyed enough before they say enough is enough. 4. You cnat really negotiate with them out of principle because you are giving them some legitimacy for attacking civilians. It will be much easier to break their power base, especially as many more cointrues will be on board. they cnat hold the world to ransom. It was a mistake spreading the attacks. the west doesnt want to go back, but they will if they have to. ISIS will never be recognised as a country, which is one of the things they want. 5. We are not getting picked off one by one, but more and more countries are getting attacked and annoyed. 3 more attacks like paris and something will be sorted out in the form of a military campaugn. Its just a pain in the backside to organise, bit of $, but worse people in bodybags. Edited November 19, 2015 by 999tigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 If all thats your point. 1. its a bit about hearts and minds, but when it boils down to it, its about power and territory. To get hearts and minds they need power and that means territory, so negotiating with them is a bit pointless because will never remain within their own territory but will seek to expand. 2. The west cant afford to let them get to Israel or the Gulf states. 3. We wont sacrifice principles, but I can see if they want conflict they can have a real war and not just from the air. the west is capable of projecting far more power than they realise, it just has to get annoyed enough before they say enough is enough. 4. You cnat really negotiate with them out of principle because you are giving them some legitimacy for attacking civilians. It will be much easier to break their power base, especially as many more cointrues will be on board. they cnat hold the world to ransom. It was a mistake spreading the attacks. the west doesnt want to go back, but they will if they have to. ISIS will never be recognised as a country, which is one of the things they want. 5. We are not getting picked off one by one, but more and more countries are getting attacked and annoyed. 3 more attacks like paris and something will be sorted out in the form of a military campaugn. Its just a pain in the backside to organise, bit of $, but worse people in bodybags. For the umpteenth time, I do not think that we should negotiate with ISIS. There will never be any common ground between the West and them. What does need to be remembered that ISIS's power only comes from their followers, that's the key to defeating them. The quandary for the governments is that very often they want to to do the popular thing instead of the right thing. Currently the popular opinion is for us to take our pound of flesh, so they have to find a way to delivering that whilst never taking their eye of the long play. You are right that militarily is will not be a problem for ISIS to be defeated, it is just the politics that complicates matters. If we get it one this one wrong, we could be committing ourselves to another decade of fighting. That's why we have to do things the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 For the umpteenth time, I do not think that we should negotiate with ISIS. There will never be any common ground between the West and them. What does need to be remembered that ISIS's power only comes from their followers, that's the key to defeating them. The quandary for the governments is that very often they want to to do the popular thing instead of the right thing. Currently the popular opinion is for us to take our pound of flesh, so they have to find a way to delivering that whilst never taking their eye of the long play. You are right that militarily is will not be a problem for ISIS to be defeated, it is just the politics that complicates matters. If we get it one this one wrong, we could be committing ourselves to another decade of fighting. That's why we have to do things the right way. They are aware of it hence they have been reluctant to go back in. Isis are impossible to negotiate with. Btw wasnt there another thread on this subject? has it been deleted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 19, 2015 Share Posted November 19, 2015 They won't stop where they are you know. Well, they'll stop when they get to Israel naturally. They aren't that stupid. But they have all of Iraq and start on Kuwait if we don't stop them. The best thing the developed nations can do for a start is stop funding ISIS ---------- Post added 19-11-2015 at 23:51 ---------- Isis are impossible to negotiate with. Well they're negotiating with somebody, over the price they get for their oil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted November 20, 2015 Share Posted November 20, 2015 Well they're negotiating with somebody, over the price they get for their oil A completely different thing from negotiating with sovereign powers compared to negotiating with some black market middle men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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