unbeliever Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 (edited) So, you're Ok with killing innocents then. Remind you of anyone? How do you tackle the ideologies that drive young men (and women) towards terror groups? It's not a matter of being okay with killing innocents. Innocent people are dying and being brutalised already and we're not stopping it. War is a crude ugly business and you're always going to have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Would you really choose to save 100 innocents over 1000 because you can make a case that you're not directly responsible for the 1000? Edited November 21, 2015 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 It's not a matter of being okay with killing innocents. Innocent people are dying and being brutalised already and we're not stopping it. War is a crude ugly business and you're always going to have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Would you really choose to save 100 innocents over 1000 because you can make a case that you're not directly responsible for the 1000? I don't think anybody seriously doubts some kind of military intervention is required. The question is really what form should that action take. Western bombs and drones are not enough. There has to be boots on the ground and that is going to mean partnering up with Iran, Russia, the Kurds, the Lebanese and maybe even a Russian-backed Assad. The west has to swallow its pride and enter into what is an unthinkable alliance. It is the only way to geographically contain Isis. We can't go on pretending we can do this with bombs and drone strikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubaidani13 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 So, you're Ok with killing innocents then. Remind you of anyone? How do you tackle the ideologies that drive young men (and women) towards terror groups? no i am not "ok" with it but it is a harsh reality now that innocents get caught up in this war, one way or another , IS dont give a flying and in fact that is exactly what they want. tackling ideologies is easily started, get into the madrasas where hate is being preached behind closed doors to easily influenced 10 yr olds, tackle the hate preachers in some mosques, get the many many innocent Muslims to out the hate preachers. clamp down on the view that the west is the land of milk and honey and is a cash cow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harrystottle Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I wish we knew the whole story, or even something approaching it. Because we keep getting these Islamist "terror" groups popping up. Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, Abu Sayyaf, and now ISIL. This has been going on since at least the sixties, since the Palestine Liberation front, the PLO, Black September etc, etc. The point being OK, we can probably at great expense and with the loss of some brave soldiers, defeat ISIL. But aren't they just going to be replaced by another set of initials next year or the years after? And why is this? Surely we have to think of a long term strategy that does not require repeated military intervention in the middle east? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 I wish we knew the whole story, or even something approaching it. Because we keep getting these Islamist "terror" groups popping up. Al Quaeda, Boko Haram, the Taliban, Abu Sayyaf, and now ISIL. This has been going on since at least the sixties, since the Palestine Liberation front, the PLO, Black September etc, etc. The point being OK, we can probably at great expense and with the loss of some brave soldiers, defeat ISIL. But aren't they just going to be replaced by another set of initials next year or the years after? And why is this? Surely we have to think of a long term strategy that does not require repeated military intervention in the middle east? It's being going on a hell of a lot longer than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 Taking Isis alone: trained, funded and equipped by western powers, Quatar and Saudi. The USA bombed for 13 months and didn't once attack the conveys of fuel trucks that deliver £2m a day in revenue for Isis. Truth is the USA want Assad out. IS destabilises Syria and weakens Assad. Therefore we have a situation where the USA carries out a propaganda campaign involving ineffective bombing, allows IS to keep a major income stream and all because it damages Assad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 clamp down on hate preachers in this country Seems reasonable stop pussy footing around certain minorities for fear of upsetting them. That's an incredibly vague notion. What do you actually mean? Can you give an example of a situation where you feel we are pussyfooting around a minority and how we should change something? I cant think of anymore yet but feel free to add your thoughts. The kinds of youngsters who are at risk of being radicalised ( according to the government ) are those who experience the following - • family tensions • a sense of isolation • migration • distance from cultural heritage • experience of racism or discrimination • feeling of failure etc. Therefore, we need to think about tackling these kinds of issues. ---------- Post added 21-11-2015 at 11:50 ---------- no i am not "ok" with it but it is a harsh reality now that innocents get caught up in this war, one way or another , IS dont give a flying and in fact that is exactly what they want. What exactly is it you're saying IS want? tackling ideologies is easily started, get into the madrasas where hate is being preached behind closed doors to easily influenced 10 yr olds, tackle the hate preachers in some mosques, get the many many innocent Muslims to out the hate preachers. I don't have a problem with any of what you suggest there. clamp down on the view that the west is the land of milk and honey and is a cash cow. How do you 'clamp down on a view'? What, precisely, are you trying to suggest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy lady Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The kinds of youngsters who are at risk of being radicalised ( according to the government ) are those who experience the following - • distance from cultural heritage Well there is a very obvious solution to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eater Sundae Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 So, you're Ok with killing innocents then. Remind you of anyone? How do you tackle the ideologies that drive young men (and women) towards terror groups? Have you read the link that Nagel posted in #701. If that analysis is true, then the only way to stop ISIS will be to destroy them in their Caliphate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*_ash_* Posted November 21, 2015 Share Posted November 21, 2015 The kinds of youngsters who are at risk of being radicalised ( according to the government ) are those who experience the following - • family tensions • a sense of isolation • migration • distance from cultural heritage • experience of racism or discrimination • feeling of failure etc. Therefore, we need to think about tackling these kinds of issues This list [i think] highlights the downsides of 'multiculturalism' (not multi-racial society btw before anyone wrongly uses racism against me ) We have had successive governments particularly in the last couple of decades that have just painted over cracks/the points that you raise here, and just keeping spouting out the same lines that everything to do with immigration is a good thing. The NHS is often used in political debates for this reason. It might be a globalised world now, and that won't change, but the fact is that different cultures live in different ways, and when you rush to put so many different things together, it causes things like especially the second one in your list. You can see it in Sheffield and every other place in the country, many if not most people group and gather with people of similar cultures (not races). You can easily say the same about people with British culture and British people who go and live abroad in Eurpore for example (someone say 'explain British culture', I'm sure they will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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