Eric Arthur Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm not interested in you or I splitting hairs about what constitutes a book. IS believe what they believe regardless and that is all that matters. You need to have a chat with them about your knowledge being superior to their's, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningman1 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 These radical ideas usually don't spring from the Quran, but from the Hadith and just out of preachers' own heads. They may say that they're following the Quran, but that doesn't make it true. If they're following the Quran, I'd like to see quotes from the Quran establishing this. Are you looking for quotes from the Qu'ran that demand violence? Or the specific violence mentioned above? If it is just violence then there is loads. I won't post them all, but have a Google and see for yourself. Surah 9 (at talwah I think it's called) is pretty full of it. I will give you one "fighting is prescribed for you". From memory this is found hear the front of the Surah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Are you looking for quotes from the Qu'ran that demand violence? Or the specific violence mentioned above? If it is just violence then there is loads. I won't post them all, but have a Google and see for yourself. Surah 9 (at talwah I think it's called) is pretty full of it. I will give you one "fighting is prescribed for you". From memory this is found hear the front of the Surah. I'm trying to establish that IS's idea of a Caliphate is not part of the Quran and therefore not unquestionable for Muslims in general. If it's from the Hadith or other teachings outside the Quran, then it's not the final and unalterable word of god and it is therefore incorrect to assert that IS are simply following Islam. They are instead following one interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Why are you bothering? IS think that they are correct and that's what matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningman1 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm trying to establish that IS's idea of a Caliphate is not part of the Quran and therefore not unquestionable for Muslims in general. If it's from the Hadith or other teachings outside the Quran, then it's not the final and unalterable word of god and it is therefore incorrect to assert that IS are simply following Islam. They are instead following one interpretation. Oh ok. We can discuss specifically the question of caliphate and not the violence ISIS are known for. I do not believe that the concept of a caliphate is mentioned at all in the Qu'ran. If memory serves correctly there are instructions to push unbelievers from your borders. If one has borders, one must assume that this implies a collective statehood of Muslims, though not called a caliphate. I do not have my Qu'ran with me at the moment so I can't provide a surah and verse number, sorry. I believe that it was during Muhammed's final sermon that this issue of khalifa (successor) was discussed. A caliphate is to a khalifa what an empire is to an emperor. There are admittedly differences of opinion regarding the legitimacy of the haddiths, but I feel that you are misunderstanding their importance. Think of the haddiths as half (perhaps even a quarter) of a step down from the Qu'ran. The haddiths are the message from Muhammed, Allah's last messenger (whereas the Qu'ran is the message of God via Gabriel). With regards to your last point I think you are splitting hairs by saying that they aren't following Islam, just an interpretation of it. They are one and the same in my opinion. Moreover, it is ignorant and bigoted to assume that their interpretation of Islam is any less valid than anyone else's. (Note I am not suggesting you said that). ---------- Post added 22-11-2015 at 12:52 ---------- Why are you bothering? IS think that they are correct and that's what matters. Because this is a discussion forum my friend. We come here to discuss things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm specifically interested in why someone would bother. Once ISIL's motives are established it's an intellectual dead end which doesn't take the discussion anywhere interesting in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runningman1 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm specifically interested in why someone would bother. Once ISIL's motives are established it's an intellectual dead end which doesn't take the discussion anywhere interesting in this context. If this aspect of the discussion doesn't interest you, that's obviously fine. I am only interested in possibly 5% of what is discussed on this forum. I advise you to ignore this part of this thread, some will find it interesting, you obviously don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psynuk Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm assuming the reason for persuing this line of thought is to differentiate, between the teachings of islam (unadulterated/moderate/etc) vs the perversion claimed by isis to be the correct teachings. The reason would presumably be along the lines of enabling the use of 'not in my name' legitimately. Which could then become a mantra of sorts for muslims who have a choice to make when the issue of deciding are they following an 'honest' interpretation arises. iyswim Basically being able to correctly state that isis version of islam is corrupted for x,y,z reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 I'm assuming the reason for persuing this line of thought is to differentiate, between the teachings of islam (unadulterated/moderate/etc) vs the perversion claimed by isis to be the correct teachings. The reason would presumably be along the lines of enabling the use of 'not in my name' legitimately. Which could then become a mantra of sorts for muslims who have a choice to make when the issue of deciding are they following an 'honest' interpretation arises. iyswim Basically being able to correctly state that isis version of islam is corrupted for x,y,z reasons. Quite so. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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