JFKvsNixon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Why?......... ISIS's power comes from it's followers. ISIS hate the West because more and more Muslims are drawn towards the West's values, freedoms and consumerist lifestyle and turning their back on the extreme conservative lifestyle that ISIS demands, and who can blame them? ISIS's plan is to create conflict between the West and Muslims to polarise opinions and draw Muslims back into their fold. They'd probably do this via their propaganda which will centre on how the West are hypocrites and their cherished values and freedoms fake because they'll happily kill Muslim women and children. If our response is out of proportion, as said above ISIS who are skilled propagandists will pull more and more fighters into the conflict and once more we'll be in a bloody ten year struggle that cost us untold lives. If we can limit the followers that ISIS recruits, and as result limit ISIS's power by sticking to our values and freedoms ISIS cannot win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 To be honest it is only the bleeding heart liberals who make a fuss about Dresden anyhow. When you are fighting a war killing the man who makes the bullets is just as important as killing the man who is firing them. In a similar vein someone has to make the uniform for the soldier and someone has to make his lunch. The reason why the trains ran through dresden was not so the holiday makers could get to the seaside. It was to help the German war effort. The Germans bombed Sheffield because the civillian population here made steel, shells, guns, crankshafts for Spitfires and millions of other things that supported the front line troops. So just to be clear about Dresden... an official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich" and in 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the army with materiel. .....Who do you think it was that was shooting back at British bombers? I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do. Well morally it was, but war doesn't really have morality. You are killing people, that is without morals before we even start so you cannot try to put rules for normal life into a war. That's why we have the Geneva convention to try to create a set of rules that allow us to kill without being murderers, but at the same time try to do minimal damage to those not involved in the fighting. It's a difficult call. Some people say that dropping bombs on Hiroshima by the Americans effectively saved hundreds of thousands of lives by ending the war earlier than it would of done otherwise. Others say this was a horrendous act, a war crime in all but name. I guess the answer is there isn't an answer. Anyone who doesn't at least cringe at nuclear bombs being dropped on a city of mainly totally innocent people isn't someone I'd like to know, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong call. At some point we just have to trust the military to do their job, but that is hard when we have so many conflicting stories and ideas about what we should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exxon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 ISIS's power comes from it's followers. ISIS hate the West because more and more Muslims are drawn towards the West's values, freedoms and consumerist lifestyle and turning their back on the extreme conservative lifestyle that ISIS demands, and who can blame them? ISIS's plan is to create conflict between the West and Muslims to polarise opinions and draw Muslims back into their fold. They'd probably do this via their propaganda which will centre on how the West are hypocrites and their cherished values and freedoms fake because they'll happily kill Muslim women and children. If our response is out of proportion, as said above ISIS who are skilled propagandists will pull more and more fighters into the conflict and once more we'll be in a bloody ten year struggle that cost us untold lives. If we can limit the followers that ISIS recruits, and as result limit ISIS's power by sticking to our values and freedoms ISIS cannot win. I'm quite happy for those drawn towards ISIS to clear off to Syria so that we can bomb them as well. It is certainly better than having them here or in Paris where they can sneak out at the weekend to murder a few dozen infidels. Thankfully the Russians don't seem to be tied by the same constraints as we are. I can't imagine that they will have too many scrupples about wiping out the whole damned lot of them. ---------- Post added 23-11-2015 at 11:25 ---------- I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do. Well morally it was, but war doesn't really have morality. You are killing people, that is without morals before we even start so you cannot try to put rules for normal life into a war. That's why we have the Geneva convention to try to create a set of rules that allow us to kill without being murderers, but at the same time try to do minimal damage to those not involved in the fighting. It's a difficult call. Some people say that dropping bombs on Hiroshima by the Americans effectively saved hundreds of thousands of lives by ending the war earlier than it would of done otherwise. Others say this was a horrendous act, a war crime in all but name. I guess the answer is there isn't an answer. Anyone who doesn't at least cringe at nuclear bombs being dropped on a city of mainly totally innocent people isn't someone I'd like to know, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong call. At some point we just have to trust the military to do their job, but that is hard when we have so many conflicting stories and ideas about what we should do. I'm still struggling with this concept of "a city of mainly totally innocent people". Just what do you imagine the average Tojo got up to in Hiroshima during the day? " Hiroshima was a major army base that housed the headquarters of the Japanese 5th Division and the 2nd Army Headquarters. It was also an important port in southern Japan and a communications center." During the war most of the factories in Hiroshima were turned over to manufacturing munitions and war materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I'm quite happy for those drawn towards ISIS to clear off to Syria so that we can bomb them as well. It is certainly better than having them here or in Paris where they can sneak out at the weekend to murder a few dozen infidels. Thankfully the Russians don't seem to be tied by the same constraints as we are. I can't imagine that they will have too many scrupples about wiping out the whole damned lot of them. So you're happy for the world to be polarised in conflict between the West and the Islamic world? It looks like that you're actually doing ISIS's work for them, when did you sign up? Also, Russia's response to it's own Islamic terrorist problems hasn't really been a sparkling success, why should it succeed in Syria? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I'm quite happy for those drawn towards ISIS to clear off to Syria so that we can bomb them as well. It is certainly better than having them here or in Paris where they can sneak out at the weekend to murder a few dozen infidels. Thankfully the Russians don't seem to be tied by the same constraints as we are. I can't imagine that they will have too many scrupples about wiping out the whole damned lot of them. ---------- Post added 23-11-2015 at 11:25 ---------- I'm still struggling with this concept of "a city of mainly totally innocent people". Just what do you imagine the average Tojo got up to in Hiroshima during the day? " Hiroshima was a major army base that housed the headquarters of the Japanese 5th Division and the 2nd Army Headquarters. It was also an important port in southern Japan and a communications center." During the war most of the factories in Hiroshima were turned over to manufacturing munitions and war materials. Teaching? Running hospitals? Parking attendants? Being babies? Some manufacturing of weapons granted. If this is the standards we now set then we don't we just nuke the entirety of the middle east from Pakistan to Dubai? If you are fine with killing people not directly involved in the war then surely this is the way to deal with ISIS... Not intentionally throwing out a strawman here, I'm trying to understand your view by exploring scenarios. I do like debate on here and we don't agree but at least we can constructively disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exxon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Why we don't we just nuke the entirety of the middle east from Pakistan to Dubai? It sounds like a plan. It certainly beats waiting until they get nuclear weapons and use them before we try that approach. Just what would be your response to a nuclear bomb going off in London? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 It sounds like a plan. It certainly beats waiting until they get nuclear weapons and use them before we try that approach. Just what would be your response to a nuclear bomb going off in London? Eeeeek. Ok. I think we've found our level of disagreement now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exxon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 So you're happy for the world to be polarised in conflict between the West and the Islamic world? It looks like that you're actually doing ISIS's work for them, when did you sign up? Also, Russia's response to it's own Islamic terrorist problems hasn't really been a sparkling success, why should it succeed in Syria? Has Russia's approach been any more or less successful than anywhere else? Russia's problem is that many of the republics were Islamic. At least we agree what the problem is. The only way to peacefully co-exist with Islam is for us all to convert and submit to their doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Has Russia's approach been any more or less successful than anywhere else. Russia's problem is that many of the republics were Islamic. At least we agree what the problem is. The only way to peacefully co-exist with Islam is for us all to convert and submit to their doctrine. So even though you agree that Russia's approach hasn't been any better than ours, which left us with countless casualties for no noticeable gain. Why are you thankful for their approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exxon Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 So even though you agree that Russia's approach hasn't been any better than ours, which left us with countless casualties for no noticeable gain. Why are you thankful for their approach? No. I think they have done rather better considering their starting position was rather worse than ours. They have certainly done rather better than Syria, Egypt, Tunisis, Lebanon, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kenya, Nigeria and Sudan all of whom have the same problem. It is always the same problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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