Open borders refugee crisis vs ISIL terrorists

[sgtkate]

Combination of motive and opportunity, as usual.

 

Motive: though not a "senior partner in all this", France was in Afghanistan with the UK, US and others, took a lead in bombing Libya and has lately taken to bombing IS in Syria. Moreover, Paris is as high-visibility a target as they come regardless - I daresay more so than Berlin or Brussels or Madrid.

 

Opportunity: it is indeed significantly easier to get to targets in France, once infiltrated amongst the throng of hundreds of thousands of (mostly unprocessed) migrants, than in the UK or the US. There's no body of water to cross, once you're onto the European continent. Borders, languages, distances <etc.> mean nothing to these guys: unless there is a physical barrier in the way, they'll get to wherever they're getting on foot if need be, and the west European continent is a big place. The UK is also far more festooned with CCTVs as France, very significantly so.

 

The domestic/homegrown angle put aside for a moment, many of those bemoaning "open borders" in the terrorist context are obviously unfamiliar with the comprehensive border checks carried out in France for everything and anyone getting on a ferry or through the Chunnel.

 

No such thing with Schengen, and that's how and why recently-infiltrated Syrian, Egyptians <etc.> move about throughout with ease.

 

Not for much longer though: as Sweden (last week), Germany (on and off, these days increasingly-frequently 'on') and now France do away with Schengen 'exceptionally' (legal reason to temporarily suspend the effects of the Schengen agreement ) and restore border checks, that window of opportunity is shrinking. Countries don't have to patrol the whole length of land borders at all times, that's what intel satellites/planes/helos/drones, together with set-and-forget motion and IR trackers are for.

 

That is one of the reasons why I think we're going to see more such atrocities and soon.

 

The domestic/homegrown element is necessarily small and highly secretive, due to the level of domestic intelligence capacity and monitoring. What the domestic/homegrown element has lacked mostly to get to work so far, is enough footsoldiers. Because they're so much harder to recruit and keep tabs on here, what with ELINT monitoring and ease of infiltration by intelligence agents, etc. So the local networks will have been busy getting the logistics ready-in-place: stolen cars, weapons, explosives, targets, plans, just waiting to get enough footsoldiers for implementing.

 

They're here now: IS warned us they'd flood us with immigrants and send footsoldiers within that lot in their thousands. They are the tactical force multiplier which domestic networks needed: for every one domestic footsoldier with in-depth local knowledge whom they can field, they can create a single action cell of 5 or 6 or more attackers made up of that local terrorist, with a few recently "imported" ones who don't need that local knowledge. I have a strong feeling this is how they operated in Paris.

 

It's not as if we didn't have constructive notice, but comparatively few like Zamo and me tried to be a voice of reason when the migrant crisis suddenly went nova overnight, and we were promptly derided as xenophobes, racists, unemotional, far rightists, <etc.> for our sins. Vindication never tasted so bitter

 

Except the only terrorist so far identified was a French national. Schengen zone did make things easier for them by allowing freedom of movement of weapons from Germany it appears, but the Syrian passports conveniently found on the bodies of the terrorists have been declared as fakes and we placed there by ISIS purely as propaganda to fuel the Wests anti-refugee campaign. The more we turn on the refugees, the more they will stay and fight with ISIS is the idea. Do you seriously think a suicide bomber is just going to happen to have his passport on him unless there's another agenda?

[L00b]

Except the only terrorist so far identified was a French national.

Don't forget the Belgians.

Schengen zone did make things easier for them by allowing freedom of movement of weapons from Germany it appears, but the Syrian passports conveniently found on the bodies of the terrorists have been declared as fakes and we placed there by ISIS purely as propaganda to fuel the Wests anti-refugee campaign.

It has equally been shown that at least two of the terrorists came back to Western Europe with the migrants this year.

 

I have zero doubt the fake Syrian passports were used to facilitate, in that context (the booming trade in fake Syrian passports, and violence visited upon genuine Syrian refugees to steal their genuine Syrian passports, is cotemporal with this summer's mass influx and is old news).

 

/argument

The more we turn on the refugees, the more they will stay and fight with ISIS is the idea.

That would be the refugees' personal choice.

 

Their alternative choice is to help their would-be saviours with denouncing those fellow travellers they know or have reasons to suspect are not genuine refugees/migrants.

 

Now, were you in their shoes, would you do so, or side with IS?

Do you seriously think a suicide bomber is just going to happen to have his passport on him unless there's another agenda?

A suicide bomber is always going to "happen to" have a passport (his or a fake) because of their agenda.

 

Are you familiar at all with the materials and manufacturing methods of modern passports, by the way? Pretty tough items designed to last for 10 years of travelling, shoving and rough-handling, those are, with fairly exotic compositions for the covers and ID pages.

 

If the only impression all my post(s) have left you is that I've "got it in" for migrants, then sadly you are gravely mistaken. I'm a migrant myself FGS!

 

What I do have it in for, is the small moon-sized political clustef***k and this summer's lack of common sense and rational action by all and sundry, which has permitted these two (and most of the ohers no doubt) to waltz back in unimpeded. And very many more I'm sure, whom no one knows about yet (you don't seriously think they all registered with local authorities like all good migrants, do you?) and who are now too numerous for under-resourced intel services throughout the EU to track and keep tabs on reliably.

 

As demonstrated last Friday night

Edited November 17, 2015 by L00b

[sgtkate]

Don't forget the Belgians.

It has equally been shown that at least two of the terrorists came back to Western Europe with the migrants this year.

 

I have zero doubt the fake Syrian passports were used to facilitate, in that context (the booming trade in fake Syrian passports, and violence visited upon genuine Syrian refugees to steal their genuine Syrian passports, is cotemporal with this summer's mass influx and is old news).

 

/argument

That would be the refugees' personal choice.

 

Their alternative choice is to help their would-be saviours with denouncing those fellow travellers they know or have reasons to suspect are not genuine refugees/migrants.

 

Now, were you in their shoes, would you do so, or side with IS?

A suicide bomber is always going to "happen to" have a passport (his or a fake) because of their agenda.

 

Are you familiar at all with the materials and manufacturing methods of modern passports, by the way? Pretty tough items designed to last for 10 years of travelling, shoving and rough-handling, those are, with fairly exotic compositions for the covers and ID pages.

 

If the only impression all my post(s) have left you is that I've "got it in" for migrants, then sadly you are gravely mistaken. I'm a migrant myself FGS!

 

What I do have it in for, is the monster-sized political clustef***k that resulted from this summer's lack of common sense and rational action by all and sundry, which has permitted these two (and most of the ohers no doubt) to filter back in. And very many more no one knows about yet I'm sure, which are now too numerous for under-resourced intel services throughout the EU to track and keep tabs on reliably. As demonstrated last Friday night

 

I think we mostly agree Loob and I don't think you 'have it in for' refugees or migrants at all. You're views are balanced and well-thought and are a long way from foaming at the mouth! We may not always agree but at least we can discuss!

[El Nino]

Open borders are the future of the world. Treat human beings like adults and let them choose where they want to live and organisations like ISIS would whither on the vine.

[sgtkate]

Open borders are the future of the world. Treat human beings like adults and let them choose where they want to live and organisations like ISIS would whither on the vine.

 

Yes, but that's a long way off. Firstly we would need to whole world to be roughly equal in wealth otherwise we will get a queue of people heading to where the money is. As an ideology I agree completely with you, but we are so far away that ISIS or us will be long gone before this is a practical and workable answer.

[Penistone999]

Open borders are the future of the world. Treat human beings like adults and let them choose where they want to live and organisations like ISIS would whither on the vine.

 

Good idea. Lets just allow terrorists and every waif and stray wander around unchecked.

[m0cbt]

Except the only terrorist so far identified was a French national. Schengen zone did make things easier for them by allowing freedom of movement of weapons from Germany it appears, but the Syrian passports conveniently found on the bodies of the terrorists have been declared as fakes and we placed there by ISIS purely as propaganda to fuel the Wests anti-refugee campaign. The more we turn on the refugees, the more they will stay and fight with ISIS is the idea. Do you seriously think a suicide bomber is just going to happen to have his passport on him unless there's another agenda?

 

Passport has been verified by fingerprints taken in Greece match the bomber,also another man has been arrested in Greece using the same passport.These are believed to have been forged in Turkey

[Dubaidani13]

Open borders are the future of the world. Treat human beings like adults and let them choose where they want to live and organisations like ISIS would whither on the vine.

 

that has to be the most stupid post of the day:loopy:

[sgtkate]

Passport has been verified by fingerprints taken in Greece match the bomber,also another man has been arrested in Greece using the same passport.These are believed to have been forged in Turkey

 

Not sure I understand your post...are you agreeing they were fakes? Or saying there are 2 genuine passports issued to 2 different people?!?!

[Dubaidani13]

Yes, but that's a long way off. Firstly we would need to whole world to be roughly equal in wealth otherwise we will get a queue of people heading to where the money is. As an ideology I agree completely with you, but we are so far away that ISIS or us will be long gone before this is a practical and workable answer.

 

airy fairy land, the world isnt equal never has been! never will be? the world works on capitalism and unequal power, have you not read George Orwell? Animal farm?