Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[sgtkate]

Not really no.

I don't want my physician to be running on a caffeine overdose when he comes to see me.

Still that seems to be the way with junior doctors throughout the west.

 

I've not seen the details of the new working hours rules myself. I assume that they're allowed time recuperate both from such a long week and each day within that week?

 

 

The details are in here in handy tabular format:

http://www.bma.org.uk/support-at-work/ewtd/ewtd-juniors/ewtd-opt-out

 

Hour worked each week can increase, and rest time between shifts can be reduced. However the New Deal does give better breaks during the day. On anything else it's either worse or the same as the current deal. So ignore money completely here, junior doctors contracts are being changed to allow them to work longer, with less time off between shifts. Noone should be supporting this.

[unbeliever]

Obviously it is paid for, and we as a collective pay for it.

However if I walk outside and get hit by a car, I won't be landed with a bill for £50,000 for emergency treatment.

 

Other countries, including most of the EU, have universal healthcare where most have insurance and the state only covers the poorest.

 

Well, they keep privatising bits around the edges whenever they can. Many of them have investments and links to healthcare companies. They keep denying that they want to privatise it (which in general for politicians means that it's high on their TODO list). They have a history of privatising state run institutions...

You might as well call it a conspiracy theory when a known burglar is accused of planning to burgle a house he's been hanging around outside of.

 

This program of supposed "privatisation" started in the noughties and has simply been continued. There's plenty of scope for private sector involvement without affecting the principles of supply healthcare according need, and funding through central taxation.

[Cyclone]

My PhD is in particle astrophysics.

 

Not the point at all.

 

---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 10:33 ----------

 

Other countries, including most of the EU, have universal healthcare where most have insurance and the state only covers the poorest.

What's your point?

 

 

This program of supposed "privatisation" started in the noughties and has simply been continued. There's plenty of scope for private sector involvement without affecting the principles of supply healthcare according need, and funding through central taxation.

 

There might be plenty of scope, but the conservatives are attacking the NHS in both the media and in reality. The only possible outcome is the failure of the NHS. At which point they will privatise the rest of it, and we'll be left with a US model of healthcare. Which hopefully, nobody wants.

[unbeliever]

Not the point at all.

 

Then why did you bring it up?

You suggested that a PhD in art-history was not comparable to an MD. I agree. I do think that a PhD in hard science is.

 

---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 10:35 ----------

 

What's your point?

 

 

You suggested that the only 2 options were state run healthcare and being presented with £50,000 bills when struck by cars. I pointed out that it's a false dichotomy.

 

---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 10:36 ----------

 

There might be plenty of scope, but the conservatives are attacking the NHS in both the media and in reality. The only possible outcome is the failure of the NHS. At which point they will privatise the rest of it, and we'll be left with a US model of healthcare. Which hopefully, nobody wants.

 

That does sound rather like a conspiracy theory.

I'd be perfectly happy with a French model of healthcare.

Edited January 22, 2016 by unbeliever

[Cyclone]

My PhD is in particle astrophysics.

 

Having point this out though, perhaps you can tell me how many lives you're responsible for on a daily basis?

 

Having a PhD proves quite a few things, a reasonable level of intelligence, some organisation skills, high levels of perseverance, and a genuine insight into your field.

 

But your level of education has never determined your pay. That's far more closely linked to the job you do.

 

There are many people with PhDs in a range of fields who struggle to find work. Not the case with doctors though. So that fact alone should maintain the level of pay. Particularly when we know that they can go and get a job in Australia on better conditions, for better pay, very easily.

 

---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 10:43 ----------

 

Then why did you bring it up?

You suggested that a PhD in art-history was not comparable to an MD. I agree. I do think that a PhD in hard science is

You claimed that a PhD meant that pay should be similar to that of an MD.

I picked a PhD at random. Now you're saying, "oh, not that one, I meant these other ones"... Don't you have to be clear when writing a PhD thesis?

 

You suggested that the only 2 options were state run healthcare and being presented with £50,000 bills when struck by cars. I pointed out that it's a false dichotomy.

I didn't claim these were the only 2 options.

However since you mention the French system.

 

The French health care system is one of universal health care largely financed by government national health insurance.

Pretty much like our current system, not at all like a fully privatised system.

That does sound rather like a conspiracy theory.

I'd be perfectly happy with a French model of healthcare.

 

Since it's very similar to ours, so would I.

However, Hunt will have to get his hand in his pocket.

In 2011, France spent 11.6% of GDP on health care

 

There is no reason for us to be moving to another model at all though. Despite what the Conservative government would have you believe.

[truman]

do you honestly feel comfortable being treated by a doctor coming to the end of a 76 hour week?!?!!

 

There was a phone in type programme on the radio a few days ago..the guy calling in was a junior doctor..he said that if anyone phoned in to say they were unable to do their weekend shift then there'd be loads of docs queueing up to do the extra hours...seems they were comfortable to do it... just an observation..

[unbeliever]

Having point this out though, perhaps you can tell me how many lives you're responsible for on a daily basis?

 

Having a PhD proves quite a few things, a reasonable level of intelligence, some organisation skills, high levels of perseverance, and a genuine insight into your field.

 

But your level of education has never determined your pay. That's far more closely linked to the job you do.

 

There are many people with PhDs in a range of fields who struggle to find work. Not the case with doctors though. So that fact alone should maintain the level of pay. Particularly when we know that they can go and get a job in Australia on better conditions, for better pay, very easily.

 

---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 10:43 ----------

 

You claimed that a PhD meant that pay should be similar to that of an MD.

I picked a PhD at random. Now you're saying, "oh, not that one, I meant these other ones"... Don't you have to be clear when writing a PhD thesis?

I didn't claim these were the only 2 options.

However since you mention the French system.

 

 

Pretty much like our current system, not at all like a fully privatised system.

 

 

Since it's very similar to ours, so would I.

However, Hunt will have to get his hand in his pocket.

 

 

There is no reason for us to be moving to another model at all though. Despite what the Conservative government would have you believe.

 

I think you got the French figure from the wikipedia article.

You should read the whole thing. It's quite different from our system.

It's rather consistent with the direction we're heading in and that I'm inclined to support.

The state pays a lot of the bills through taxation, but there's a lot of private and non-profit involvement.

[El Cid]

Particularly when we know that they can go and get a job in Australia on better conditions, for better pay, very easily.

 

The joy of capitalism; lower skilled, with language issues come over here, whilst our well trained doctors go to other countries.

[sgtkate]

There was a phone in type programme on the radio a few days ago..the guy calling in was a junior doctor..he said that if anyone phoned in to say they were unable to do their weekend shift then there'd be loads of docs queueing up to do the extra hours...seems they were comfortable to do it... just an observation..

 

Perhaps some were, but I don't think it should be allowed unless there is a specific emergency which can be declared and then working time rules can be suspended. There must be a duty of care over staff as well as patients.

 

Clearly we have a shortage of doctors if they need them to work such long hours to cover basic care. So anything that makes their working conditions worse and therefore discourages the next generation cannot be a good decision.

[unbeliever]

Perhaps some were, but I don't think it should be allowed unless there is a specific emergency which can be declared and then working time rules can be suspended. There must be a duty of care over staff as well as patients.

 

Clearly we have a shortage of doctors if they need them to work such long hours to cover basic care. So anything that makes their working conditions worse and therefore discourages the next generation cannot be a good decision.

 

The shortage of doctors is world-wide. It's been going on for decades and there's no simple solution.