sgtkate Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 The shortage of doctors is world-wide. It's been going on for decades and there's no simple solution. Agree, but clearly making working conditions worse isn't a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Agree, but clearly making working conditions worse isn't a solution. Asking doctors to work longer hours is the only way to manage the problem. It's not ideal, but for the moment it's all there is. They should be asked and not coerced or forced, but if they're willing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) You suggested that a PhD in art-history was not comparable to an MD. I agree. I do think that a PhD in hard science is.What are your annual professional liability insurance premium and rules of professional conduct like? Edited January 22, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I agree with you on this. But that's not *directly* what they are striking over, or not all they are striking over. There will be changes to the hours they can legally be rota'd for so they could have to work 76 hours a week. Of course they would be paid for the extra hours that they worked at either the new or the old rate but do you honestly feel comfortable being treated by a doctor coming to the end of a 76 hour week?!?!! It's actually 72 hours, but that is a key piece of information they want you to understand, and they are quite correct as 72 hours is the proposed maximum hours. But they omit to mention that they currently work up to 91 hours. They want the same money for fewer hours but they only promote half the information. This is why its a pay dispute and nothing to do with patient safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 And eventually the conservative end goal is to declare the NHS unfit for purpose and to sell it off to their mates. WE will then have to start paying for our medical care. You see, right up to this point I'd agree. But this gets trotted out time and time again and it's just scaremongering. There is no evidence that this is ever going to happen, and it makes no sense that it would be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 What are your annual professional liability insurance premium and rules of professional conduct like? Oh dear. I was never suggesting that physicians should be paid like researchers. I was suggesting that unlike my field, the pay scale is extremely steep. Senior doctors are extremely well paid (more than my field) and junior doctors less than my field. I proposed that they should start on more, but advance more slowly. I'm content for the career earnings of a physician to be higher than those of a researcher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Oh dear. I was never suggesting that physicians should be paid like researchers. I was suggesting that unlike my field, the pay scale is extremely steep. Senior doctors are extremely well paid (more than my field) and junior doctors less than my field. I proposed that they should start on more, but advance more slowly. I'm content for the career earnings of a physician to be higher than those of a researcher. Oh dear. You're still drawing a false analogy. I would propose that you familiarise yourself with the additional workload and responsibilities of senior doctors, in particular consultants (do you know any?), relative to junior doctors. As with any highly-skilled, highly-regulated and highly-responsibilised professional career, juniors have training wheels on and do the donkey work to build experience. Seniors do their own work (oftentimes still more specialised and complex) plus the supervision of juniors and management. And they'll still be on call shifts. That model hasn't changed in decades and longer, wherever you look, and likely won't ever change until and unless someone comes up with a training solution or widget that insta-produces physicians (or similar level professionals) without need of experience building under supervision over a period of years. The free market economy (and the easily- and readily-transferrable nature of such skills) does the rest - and the difference. Edited January 22, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I'd be happy for an astrophysicist to be paid more than a doctor because I expect that the average astrophysicist contributes more to the development of the human race than the average doctor. Doctors are ten a penny by comparison, but they do have a better union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 It's actually 72 hours, but that is a key piece of information they want you to understand, and they are quite correct as 72 hours is the proposed maximum hours. But they omit to mention that they currently work up to 91 hours. They want the same money for fewer hours but they only promote half the information. This is why its a pay dispute and nothing to do with patient safety. Yet most consultants who stand to gain nothing from this dispute are saying it is about patient safety and totally support the junior colleagues. My managers don't often support the junior ranks pay disputes so why are they it is all about money as you claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I'd be happy for an astrophysicist to be paid more than a doctor because I expect that the average astrophysicist contributes more to the development of the human race than the average doctor. Doctors are ten a penny by comparison, but they do have a better union. You know why there are fewer astrophysicists? It's because there isn't that much work for astrophysicists. ---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 11:36 ---------- You see, right up to this point I'd agree. But this gets trotted out time and time again and it's just scaremongering. There is no evidence that this is ever going to happen, and it makes no sense that it would be the case. Apart from the past evidence of the conservative party privatising everything it can, and that ultimately resulting in higher costs to the public... Oh, and members of the conservative party personally benefitting due to links to those newly privatised industries... No evidence at all. ---------- Post added 22-01-2016 at 11:37 ---------- Asking doctors to work longer hours is the only way to manage the problem. It's not ideal, but for the moment it's all there is. They should be asked and not coerced or forced, but if they're willing... That's not a solution to better care. That's a proposal that will result in worse care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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