Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[alchemist]

So employment contracts should mean nothing then?

 

Isnt the basis of getting rid of unions and the right to strike so that employment contracts will be meaningless for the employee?

 

Soon it will be back to the Victorian principle of you've got a job so be grateful, and make sure you tug that forelock

 

---------- Post added 11-02-2016 at 14:24 ----------

 

Does it really matter what sutty thinks? Does it really matter whether he thinks th rest of the terms are reasonable or not? The people who know whether it suts them are the junior Dr's as they are the ones doing the jobs and the ones whil will be required to work the new contract.

 

They are the ones who can decide whether its an attractive, favourable, neutral, poor or bad offer. They can respond accordingly.....

 

And when they DO respond accordingly its be hoped that you can speak a few eastern european languages to be able to speak to their replacements!!

 

---------- Post added 11-02-2016 at 14:33 ----------

 

And they will go to work where exactly?

NHS holds monopoly on healthcare positions.

There are private services, but all put together are still not enough to hire 90% of them.

And if they would that would bring massive competition in private sector.

That could be beneficial to all of us.

 

So foreign countries dont need doctors then?

[Orzel]

And when they DO respond accordingly its be hoped that you can speak a few eastern european languages to be able to speak to their replacements!!

NHS already pays for treatment abroad. No more then it would cost here if I remember it rite.

There are plenty of private clinics offering superb service in eastern Europe. With english speaking staff.

Flights are cheap.

Might become a booming industry.

So foreign countries dont need doctors then?

Not that magical 90%.

Plus British accreditation doesn't just seamlessly transfer anywhere else. Or in fact any other anywhere else. Might be easier in some places, harder in some.

Starting healthcare career outside of country of your graduation is usually a pain of paperwork, low paid first placement, learning language and such.

Plus everything else related to changing country.

That requires way more investment then they lose.

I call it bluff.

Few odd ones will do it, rest will just have no choice.

[sgtkate]

NHS already pays for treatment abroad. No more then it would cost here if I remember it rite.

There are plenty of private clinics offering superb service in eastern Europe. With english speaking staff.

Flights are cheap.

Might become a booming industry.

 

Not that magical 90%.

Plus British accreditation doesn't just seamlessly transfer anywhere else. Or in fact any other anywhere else. Might be easier in some places, harder in some.

Starting healthcare career outside of country of your graduation is usually a pain of paperwork, low paid first placement, learning language and such.

Plus everything else related to changing country.

That requires way more investment then they lose.

I call it bluff.

Few odd ones will do it, rest will just have no choice.

 

But the next generation, the ones currently thinking about university and career plans do have a choice and they will choose other careers away from medicine now thanks to this contract dispute and the actions of this government. And no matter what, that's an appalling situation to be in where we are going to need large number of doctors from overseas simply to keep basic service running. Maybe the doctors do have us over a barrel, but it's not a barrel I'm willing to take away from them to be honest. If someone is going to start sticking their hand in my chest I'd much rather their mind was totally on the job rather than thinking about words Hunt rhymes with.

[RickyM]

I'm getting a bit bored of this now.

 

The government have been generous in their offer to junior doctors as they have agreed they can earn more cash and work less hours. All they have to do is work more hours on a weekend so that hospitals are less busy during the week.

 

What's the problem? I could be missing something but I can't find non biased information.

[sgtkate]

I'm getting a bit bored of this now.

 

The government have been generous in their offer to junior doctors as they have agreed they can earn more cash and work less hours. All they have to do is work more hours on a weekend so that hospitals are less busy during the week.

 

What's the problem? I could be missing something but I can't find non biased information.

 

Ricky, to be honest there is plenty of non-biased information out there if you can be bothered to look for it. Unfortunately a lot of the problem the BMA have is within the fine detail of how things will be applied as opposed to the headline figures. A good example is around the working less hours. Yup, it's on the governments offer so great you'd think, but currently hospitals are fined heavily if they make junior doctors work long hours. Under the governments plans these penalties will be removed COMPLETELY, meaning there is no reason for a hospital to no make the doctors work long hours if they are short of cover. So headlines say doctors hours are shorter, BMA say in practice all safeguards to guarantee are being removed leading almost certainly to doctors actually working longer.

 

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

[foxy lady]

It wouldnt take all 90% of them resigning to cause massive problems.

 

In the medium term they can work in wales and scotland.

They can also work as locums.

 

Well they could if Wales and Scotland had the budget to employ them.

[RickyM]

Ricky, to be honest there is plenty of non-biased information out there if you can be bothered to look for it. Unfortunately a lot of the problem the BMA have is within the fine detail of how things will be applied as opposed to the headline figures. A good example is around the working less hours. Yup, it's on the governments offer so great you'd think, but currently hospitals are fined heavily if they make junior doctors work long hours. Under the governments plans these penalties will be removed COMPLETELY, meaning there is no reason for a hospital to no make the doctors work long hours if they are short of cover. So headlines say doctors hours are shorter, BMA say in practice all safeguards to guarantee are being removed leading almost certainly to doctors actually working longer.

 

Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.

 

I thought the Tories removed targets when they came into power. They were strongly against the targets for waiting times that Labour introduced but I assumed the Tories wanted to be rid of all targets.

 

Anyway, thanks for your response.

[Orzel]

But the next generation, the ones currently thinking about university and career plans do have a choice and they will choose other careers away from medicine now thanks to this contract dispute and the actions of this government.

Or they will choose same career. New contracts are not so bad. It's privileged position in public sector.

It is still way better then many other careers. I fail to see why they are so upset.

Unsociable hours is something that comes with that trade. Period.

Same as fireman and police officer. Its not a job, it's a service.

If they don't realise that they shouldn't start at all.

[foxy lady]

But the next generation, the ones currently thinking about university and career plans do have a choice and they will choose other careers away from medicine now thanks to this contract dispute and the actions of this government. And no matter what, that's an appalling situation to be in where we are going to need large number of doctors from overseas simply to keep basic service running. Maybe the doctors do have us over a barrel, but it's not a barrel I'm willing to take away from them to be honest. If someone is going to start sticking their hand in my chest I'd much rather their mind was totally on the job rather than thinking about words Hunt rhymes with.

 

Where will they come from?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/05/greece-healthcare-brink-catastrophe

http://www.ibtimes.com/medical-leave-romanian-doctors-fleeing-poor-pay-corruption-western-europe-1557178

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25014725

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2005/may/15/workandcareers.europeanunion

http://www.local-life.com/gdansk/news/1097-Doctors_Demand_Pay_Rises

[999tigger]

That means 11,334,576 people gave the government their mandate to rule and make decisions on our behalf.

In contrast there are roughly 60,000 junior doctors working in the NHS and only 28,000 voted to strike, the remainder either didn't vote or they voted against, so less than 50% of junior doctors working in a protected industry are trying to hold the country to ransom.

 

 

This was about a comparison of mandates from respective groups.

 

Obviously there are going to be more people in a larger group so duh!

 

11,334,576 represents 36.9% of the vote cast on the day and 24.4% of those eligible to vote. The turnout was 66.1%

 

I like your figures and argument except they are garbage and false.

 

There were 37,155 people balloted and just over 28,000 voted. That means just over 9,000 didnt vote, but the turnout was just over 76%.

 

Of the 2 questions

Question 1

Are you prepared to take part in industrial action short of a strike?

It was 28120 in favour and 179 against. 99.4% v 0.6%

 

Question 2

Are you prepared to take part in strike action?

Number voting YES 27,741 (98% of valid vote)

Number voting NO 564 (2% of valid vote)

 

So your claim of it being less than 50% of the relevant group is false.

The idea they are holding the country to ransom is also nonsense. Its only right if they are to have their terms changed then they have a right to negotiate to get a deal that suits them. Its a question of supply and demand. If they arent worth it, then find replacements, just as they can decide if its not for them they will leave the NHS.