Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[Orzel]

They start on £23k a year with debts of up to £70k. Doesn't sound too privileged to me.

 

It may be news to you, but that junior doctors currently carry lions share of the burden for working weekends and nights, so I fail to see that you've got a point.

 

23k a year is guaranteed for graduates with guaranteed raise after working so long.

How many people have that. Everyone leaving higher education has debt. People with masters degrees work in pubs while looking for work. Doctors have lifetime position straight away. They will never be forced to look for work on free market. Tell me that isn't privileged.

NHS services on weekends and nights are substandard which was proven.

There is solid evidence, so no question there.

I fail to see what that whole strike is about.

Only valid point I see is matter of extra pay for working round clock.

[sutty27]

Until you look at the proposal in more details. Removing the mechanism that automatically fined hospitals for making junior doctors working too many hours, cannot be a good thing.

 

The hospital shouldn't be fined because that will take money away from patient care, the manager responsible for making them works longer than the law allows should be sacked instead, or pay a large fine out of their salary.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 07:53 ----------

 

 

 

Why don't the placards complain at the tuition fees to help with this matter?

 

 

That would solve some of the problems the NHS is facing, training doctors costs the British tax payer between £250,000 and £1,000,000, the tuition fees they pay only cover a tiny part of this cost. Remove the tuition fee and tie them into a contract that ensures they work in the NHS until the British tax payer has had their monies worth, it works in the armed forces and it can work for the NHS. All three of the armed forces train doctors and the cost to train them is the same as training a civilian doctor, the difference is they don't pay fees, they are paid a wage from day one but they have to serve a set amount of time before they can leave.

[JFKvsNixon]

23k a year is guaranteed for graduates with guaranteed raise after working so long.

How many people have that. Everyone leaving higher education has debt. People with masters degrees work in pubs while looking for work. Doctors have lifetime position straight away. They will never be forced to look for work on free market. Tell me that isn't privileged.

NHS services on weekends and nights are substandard which was proven.

There is solid evidence, so no question there.

I fail to see what that whole strike is about.

Only valid point I see is matter of extra pay for working round clock.

 

Ok, compare the starting salary of the junior doctor compare to anemone who goes into law, which the BBC puts as being £37K. Also remember that medical students have no choice but to have 5 years of students loans.

 

What do you mean junior doctors won't be forced to look for jobs on the open market? They're not automatically given jobs, and have to apply for them in competition with other junior doctors.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 08:26 ----------

 

The hospital shouldn't be fined because that will take money away from patient care, the manager responsible for making them works longer than the law allows should be sacked instead, or pay a large fine out of their salary.

 

That is an extremely simplistic point of view.

 

The fine is in place to ensure that adequate resources are put in place to ensure that the doctors aren't forced to work over what they should, it makes financial unviable to do it.

[alchemist]

Junior doctors are in privileged position.

They are better off then most of same age.

Good pay, job security to name a few.

They will get even more money per hour with new contract.

They are not protesting for patients.

They are protesting because new contracts impose new obligations on them.

They will be expected to provide services 24/7/365.

Not 24/7 each of them. 24/7/365 like other vital services. National Grid engineers are doing it, it's not that hard. Firemen do it. It's part of that job.

They will not get paid premium bonus for doing it and it seems that what its all about.

 

I hate to break it to you, but they ALREADY provide 24/7/365 cover. Or did you think that hospitals close at weekends?

[JFKvsNixon]

Train in something else then? They are all intelligent people as has been said countless times, could they not see that training to be a doctor will never give them a rich life and that the NHS is more or less finished?... let the foreigners treat us, like I said before. They supply us with everything else, oil, food, clothes, labour, health care etc.

 

Or maybe move to Austrailia, where they can be offered upto three times the salary, complete their training, pay off their debts, save a big deposit and then move back and buy a big house when they get their consultants job.

 

It's almost as if somebody is designing a Darwinisn experiment so see what happens when all the motivated junior doctors with the get up and go are given every incentive to leave the NHS, to leave the others behind running the wards.

[Eric Arthur]

If you are on a till in Morrisons you may over charge someone.

If you are a doctor it is entirely possible that someone will die.

 

Then you would agree that it is a good idea to limit the number of hours that doctors are allowed to work, say to 72 instead of 91?

[sutty27]

Ok, compare the starting salary of the junior doctor compare to anemone who goes into law, which the BBC puts as being £37K. Also remember that medical students have no choice but to have 5 years of students loans.

 

What do you mean junior doctors won't be forced to look for jobs on the open market? They're not automatically given jobs, and have to apply for them in competition with other junior doctors.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 08:26 ----------

 

 

That is an extremely simplistic point of view.

 

The fine is in place to ensure that adequate resources are put in place to ensure that the doctors aren't forced to work over what they should, it makes financial unviable to do it.

 

The current method is idiotic, tax payer gives money to Hospitals to spend on patient care.

Hospital manager does something wrong so tax payer takes money back off hospital thereby reducing the money available for patient care.

The only people that suffer are patients, the manager looses nothing.

If you want the managers to follow the rules then it is the manager that need to suffer and not the patients, punish the manager by fining the manager or sacking the manager and the manager will follow the rules.

[Orzel]

Ok, compare the starting salary of the junior doctor compare to anemone who goes into law, which the BBC puts as being £37K. Also remember that medical students have no choice but to have 5 years of students loans.

 

Law students don't seem to form majority of society, so this point is irrelevant. Children of russian oligarchs are in better position then law students. Does that make law students screwed?

 

What do you mean junior doctors won't be forced to look for jobs on the open market? They're not automatically given jobs, and have to apply for them in competition with other junior doctors.

They work in public sector with shortage of staff.

Do you even know how they become junior doctors?

They go onto vocational training where they work. They have job as part of education. They will not end up unemployed with uni bill. They are not forced to look for job. They have it. If they want to transfer they have to apply of course, but that argument is irrelevant. It's like saying you should have a chance in lottery without buying a ticket.

Only competition they have is to get BETTER placement, not placement at all.

Guaranteed well paid placement for each that isn't total tool and gets kicked out.

 

Can you please explain it to me what is so wrong in those new contract.

I fail to see hourly wage rise as something wrong.

They will be expected to work unsociable hours but that is this trade specific.

The whole hospital not being fined for overworking staff is a load of BS.

They are clearly protesting against contracts, not that. So what is so wrong about those contracts.

 

I hate to break it to you, but they ALREADY provide 24/7/365 cover. Or did you think that hospitals close at weekends?

Care during weekends is substandard. That is proven.

In case you were living in a cave in Scotland for last few years have a read here.

Google is your friend, look for more data if you can bother.

[Eric Arthur]

Ok, compare the starting salary of the junior doctor compare to anemone who goes into law, which the BBC puts as being £37K. Also remember that medical students have no choice but to have 5 years of students loans.

That's just whataboutery though FKvsNixon. If they had wanted a lawyers salary and conditions they chose the wrong course. I quite fancy a bash at astrophysics, but I couldn't stomach the pay cut. Maybe I'll have a crack at medicine as a semi-retirement project.

[sutty27]

Then you would agree that it is a good idea to limit the number of hours that doctors are allowed to work, say to 72 instead of 91?

 

That sounds like a good idea to me, its a pity the government haven't thought of it, just think how much safer it would be for patients, personally I think 72 hours is still too high.