Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[JFKvsNixon]

That's just whataboutery though FKvsNixon. If they had wanted a lawyers salary and conditions they chose the wrong course. I quite fancy a bash at astrophysics, but I couldn't stomach the pay cut. Maybe I'll have a crack at medicine as a semi-retirement project.

 

I compared the salary because somebody suggested that the junior doctor's salary wan't bad for a graduate, so I think that my point is valid.

[neeeeeeeeeek]

Posted by Orzel

 

'Care during weekends is substandard. That is proven.

In case you were living in a cave in Scotland for last few years have a read here.

Google is your friend, look for more data if you can bother.'

 

There is evidence that the data and stats used to support that are flawed.

 

They included all admissions, including routine minor operations. By their nature, people admitted at weekend are more likely to be emergency admissions so they are more likely to be at risk of death / complications than someone admitted on a Wednesday afternoon to have an ingrowing toenail removed.

[JFKvsNixon]

The current method is idiotic, tax payer gives money to Hospitals to spend on patient care.

Hospital manager does something wrong so tax payer takes money back off hospital thereby reducing the money available for patient care.

The only people that suffer are patients, the manager looses nothing.

If you want the managers to follow the rules then it is the manager that need to suffer and not the patients, punish the manager by fining the manager or sacking the manager and the manager will follow the rules.

 

You are being overly simplistic.

 

Why are you only seeing the rostering of long hours for junior doctors as being a mistake of an individual rather than a policy taken by the hospital in an effort to save money?

 

The mechanism means the hospitals bend over backwards not to do it, the fine is avoided.

[Eric Arthur]

I compared the salary because somebody suggested that the junior doctor's salary wan't bad for a graduate, so I think that my point is valid.

We have to agree that it's not bad for a graduate and although some are tried to say otherwise, doctoring is a fantastically secure job, is very well paid, and there's no shortage of employment opportunities in any part of this country (or abroad) where you happen to fancy living. Unlike astrophysics dammit.

[JFKvsNixon]

Posted by Orzel

 

'Care during weekends is substandard. That is proven.

In case you were living in a cave in Scotland for last few years have a read here.

Google is your friend, look for more data if you can bother.'

 

There is evidence that the data and stats used to support that are flawed.

 

They included all admissions, including routine minor operations. By their nature, people admitted at weekend are more likely to be emergency admissions so they are more likely to be at risk of death / complications than someone admitted on a Wednesday afternoon to have an ingrowing toenail removed.

 

Also they weren't looking at deaths at the weekend, they were interested in the outcomes of people after they were admitted at the weekend. The death rate in hospitals at the weekend is actually lower, this is usually because risky procedures tend not to be routinely carried out at the weekend.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 09:22 ----------

 

We have to agree that it's not bad for a graduate and although some are tried to say otherwise, doctoring is a fantastically secure job, is very well paid, and there's no shortage of employment opportunities in any part of this country (or abroad) where you happen to fancy living. Unlike astrophysics dammit.

 

I disagree that £23K basic is a fantastic rate of pay for a newly qualified junior doctor.

[sutty27]

You are being overly simplistic.

 

Why are you only seeing the rostering of long hours for junior doctors as being a mistake of an individual rather than a policy taken by the hospital in an effort to save money?

 

The mechanism means the hospitals bend over backwards not to do it, the fine is avoided.

 

Hospitals don't make decisions, its the managers running them that make the decisions, finding the hospital instead of the manager takes money away from patients.

 

The fine system doesn't work, it just takes money away from patient care.

 

Junior doctors are still working 100-hour weeks despite European laws, the British Medical Association has warned.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10818708/Junior-doctors-are-still-working-100-hour-weeks-despite-European-laws-BMA.html

[JFKvsNixon]

Law students don't seem to form majority of society, so this point is irrelevant. Children of russian oligarchs are in better position then law students. Does that make law students screwed?

 

 

They work in public sector with shortage of staff.

Do you even know how they become junior doctors?

They go onto vocational training where they work. They have job as part of education. They will not end up unemployed with uni bill. They are not forced to look for job. They have it. If they want to transfer they have to apply of course, but that argument is irrelevant. It's like saying you should have a chance in lottery without buying a ticket.

Only competition they have is to get BETTER placement, not placement at all.

Guaranteed well paid placement for each that isn't total tool and gets kicked out.

 

Can you please explain it to me what is so wrong in those new contract.

I fail to see hourly wage rise as something wrong.

They will be expected to work unsociable hours but that is this trade specific.

The whole hospital not being fined for overworking staff is a load of BS.

They are clearly protesting against contracts, not that. So what is so wrong about those contracts.

 

 

Care during weekends is substandard. That is proven.

In case you were living in a cave in Scotland for last few years have a read here.

Google is your friend, look for more data if you can bother.

 

First, with your final point. You do not understand that data, as I have pointed out earlier, so maybe a quick 5 minute google isn't helping you understand the issue. Maybe you failed to notice that death rates at the weekend are lower then during the week!!!!!!

 

Next your first point about lawyers not forming the majority of society, well neither do junior doctors, so you've lost me there.

 

Finally your point about the juniors doctors employment status. They have to go through a formal application process for their training rotation places on the open market with all the other junior doctors. Their places are not given to them.

[Eric Arthur]

I disagree that £23K basic is a fantastic rate of pay for a newly qualified junior doctor.

 

That's just a day 1 basic rate which as also we know from this thread is nothing like what a junior doctor is actually paid, what with all those top ups, shift allowances etc, etc, plus pension. The BBC says that the average total salary for a doctor in training is around £37,000. Nobody forces doctors into such a well respected and well remunerated job and other careers are available.

 

I hope that we can agree on that as a career, doctoring is fantastically well paid with pretty good conditions, and excellent security with plentiful opportunities. I have quite a few doctor friends from junior to very senior policy setting level and none regrets their career choice, although one does fancy joining me in astrophysics.

[JFKvsNixon]

That's just a day 1 basic rate which as also we know from this thread is nothing like what a junior doctor is actually paid, what with all those top ups, shift allowances etc, etc, plus pension. Nobody forces doctors into such a well respected and well remunerated job and other careers are available.

 

I hope that we can agree on that as a career, doctoring is fantastically well paid with pretty good conditions, and excellent security with plentiful opportunities. I have quite a few doctor friends from junior to very senior policy setting level and none regrets their career choice, although one does fancy joining me in astrophysics.

 

Well, you would expect a day one basic rate to apply a newly qualified doctor, which is what I stated the pay was for. So whats your point?

 

We're getting away from the argument here, which is that it is wrong to cut the overall salary of the junior doctors. Remember that they're starting from a position of having no pay rise since 2009, and now the government want to cut their pay.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 09:38 ----------

 

Hospitals don't make decisions, its the managers running them that make the decisions, finding the hospital instead of the manager takes money away from patients.

 

The fine system doesn't work, it just takes money away from patient care.

 

Junior doctors are still working 100-hour weeks despite European laws, the British Medical Association has warned.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/10818708/Junior-doctors-are-still-working-100-hour-weeks-despite-European-laws-BMA.html

 

The managers are employees of the hospital, so the hospitals are responsible for their manager's behaviour. Just like they are for the behaviour of their doctors and nurses.

[foxy lady]

Ok, compare the starting salary of the junior doctor compare to anemone who goes into law, which the BBC puts as being £37K. Also remember that medical students have no choice but to have 5 years of students loans.

 

 

Aren't some of medical students fees picked up and paid for by the NHS?