sutty27 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 How am I wrong where I stated that the junior doctors unsociable pay is being cut, where am I wrong where I have stated that a mechanism to ensure that the junior doctors aren't forced to work too many hours is being removed? You are like a little child putting your fingers in your ears shouting over and over again, I don't want to hear you. I didn't say you was wrong for stating that the junior doctors unsociable pay is being cut, when you stated that a mechanism to ensure that the junior doctors aren't forced to work too many hours is being removed? I said both are good ideas, most doctors will still see their pay rise, and fining hospitals takes money away from patient care, a point you keep ignoring. Your last point dito. ---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 10:18 ---------- What has that got to do with the issue of junior doctors pay? Nothing at all, but it has everything to do with your bizarre opinion that fining hospitals is a good idea, and shows that you are wrong. Lol, how can I have you kicked off this forum? It's about time you manned up and became responsible for your own actions rather than flitting between new identities every few months. How long has this been gong on for now, it must be 5 years. I will leave that to your imagination and whats been going on for 5 years.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 I didn't say you was wrong for stating that the junior doctors unsociable pay is being cut, when you stated that a mechanism to ensure that the junior doctors aren't forced to work too many hours is being removed? I said both are good ideas, most doctors will still see their pay rise, and fining hospitals takes money away from patient care, a point you keep ignoring. Your last point ditto. So when you said I ignore everything that proves me wrong, you didn't mean to imply that I was wrong. Nothing at all, but it has everything to do with your bizarre opinion that fining hospitals is a good idea, and shows that you are wrong. No my opinion is that if the hospitals act in such a manner that they put their patients at risk, they need to be punished. Bizarre indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Not in the slightest. Reducing the absolute limit on hours they can work, now that can only be a good thing. But that isn't happening. I've explained at least twice in this thread already so I'll do it a third and FINAL time. Currently, if a hospital makes a junior doctor work long above contractual obligations then that hospital is fined heavily for doing so. Under the new government contract, you are right that the RECOMMENDED number of hours a junior doctor should work is reduced. However, the penalties a hospital will pay if they break this contract are being removed totally, leaving absolute no penalty if the hospital decide to make a junior doctor work far longer than their contract. Hospitals are already understaffed so they will make a junior doctor work those long hours to allow them to hit other targets. So on paper less hours sounds like a great thing but in practice it is a government soundbite to make people who are on the fence think the doctors are lying, and it appears to be working. ---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 11:09 ---------- I didn't say you was wrong for stating that the junior doctors unsociable pay is being cut, when you stated that a mechanism to ensure that the junior doctors aren't forced to work too many hours is being removed? I said both are good ideas, most doctors will still see their pay rise, and fining hospitals takes money away from patient care, a point you keep ignoring. Your last point dito. ---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 10:18 ---------- Nothing at all, but it has everything to do with your bizarre opinion that fining hospitals is a good idea, and shows that you are wrong. I will leave that to your imagination and whats been going on for 5 years.. You are laughable, you really are. So you want to reduce doctors hours but want to remove the mechanism to guarantee that they won't work longer hours than they do now? Making the new contractual hours utterly pointless. If my employer could suddenly make me work 70 hours per work whether I liked it or not, even though my contract says 40 you think that's ok? What will happen is that junior doctors will sign up to the Working Time Directive forcing them to work no more than 48 hours per week in LAW meaning that next time your loved one is in hospital a doctor might be FORCED by LAW to walk out of that shift leaving them to die. And you think that is a BETTER outcome than making maximum working hours enforceable through other means to allow both hospitals and doctors flexibility to respond as needed by the changing daily demands of hospital life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 It seems that another Hunt lie has managed to come to light, the health chiefs have not backed the forced contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andbreathe Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 What ability? By breaking forum rules. JFK can't have you removed if you abide by forum rules, in fact he can't have you removed anyway. That would be a mod/admin decision based on YOUR actions...I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 So when you said I ignore everything that proves me wrong, you didn't mean to imply that I was wrong. No my opinion is that if the hospitals act in such a manner that they put their patients at risk, they need to be punished. Bizarre indeed. Punishing them by fining them leaves even less money for patient care which puts patients at even greater risk, decisions are made by managers, if a manger breaks the rules by allowing doctors to work more hours than the laws allows, the manager should be punished by cutting their pay or sacking them, neither of which will put patients at risk or reduce the amount of money available for patient care. ---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 11:21 ---------- You are laughable, you really are. So you want to reduce doctors hours but want to remove the mechanism to guarantee that they won't work longer hours than they do now? The mechanism doesn't stop doctors working too many hours, the links I provide prove this point, and fines only punish patients, the links I provided also prove this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Punishing them by fining them leaves even less money for patient care which puts patients at even greater risk, decisions are made by managers, if a manger breaks the rules by allowing doctors to work more hours than the laws allows, the manager should be punished by cutting their pay or sacking them, neither of which will put patients at risk or reduce the amount of money available for patient care. ---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 11:21 ---------- The mechanism doesn't stop doctors working too many hours, the links I provide prove this point, and fines only punish patients, the links I provided also prove this point. Ok, I agree with this, so why isn't this in the current government offer then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 What will happen is that junior doctors will sign up to the Working Time Directive forcing them to work no more than 48 hours per week in LAW I would be happy if doctors only worked 48 hours a week in my opinion anything over that is too much and leaves them more likely to make mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) However, the penalties a hospital will pay if they break this contract are being removed totally, leaving absolute no penalty if the hospital decide to make a junior doctor work far longer than their contract. Hospitals are already understaffed so they will make a junior doctor work those long hours to allow them to hit other targets. Nearly but not quite. Anyone working more than 48 hours a week has to opt themselves out of the Working Time Directive legislation, including doctors nurses and undertakers. If they don't want to work the hours they don't have to. I concede that it might not be a great career move but that also applies in all sorts of careers. There will be an absolute maximum of 72 hours no matter what. At the moment it is an absolute maximum of 91, a lot which is might be spent asleep in bed waiting for a call. Let's not fool ourselves that junior doctors are routinely dealing with patients for 91 hours in a week even if it is a convenient line for doctors to use to gain sympathy for their pay dispute. I'd prefer doctors to work shifts, be paid properly and transparently, have a 40 hour week, with a 24/7 NHS for patients. £37k pa seems like a reasonable average salary for that and puts them in line with the police at the same age. Edited February 12, 2016 by Eric Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutty27 Posted February 12, 2016 Share Posted February 12, 2016 Ok, I agree with this, so why isn't this in the current government offer then? I have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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