Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[JFKvsNixon]

No one answered with any figures, and your post #202 claimed that it isn't about overtime, it's about unsocial hours not being paid the same. It's all hair-splitting.

 

As a way to move out of this circle, would it be acceptable if all the current staff continued on their contracts and any new starters be set on, on the new one (or 'a' new one)?

 

I thought I did, their current rates of pay would be acceptable to the junior doctors.

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 13:50 ----------

 

Was it a lightning strike? (I'll get me coat......)

 

Damn auto corrector, although how it got to conductors I'll never know!

 

---------- Post added 12-02-2016 at 13:51 ----------

 

The evidence I posted suggests that it doesn't act as a deterrent, if it did doctors wouldn't be working more hours than they are supposed to work. Hospitals also agree with me that taking money off them in the form of fines reduces the amount they have to spend on patient care thereby increasing the risk to patients.

 

You have posted no evidence at all to support your stance.

 

When you resort to attacking the messenger and not the message, you have lost the debate.

 

Not it doesn't. For all you could know every junior doctor could be over worked by their hospital without the finical incentive not to. You just do not know and cannot claim that it doesn't work as a deterrent.

 

I was thinking of a marine based name for your next identity, how about starfish or crusty-crab? I prefer crusty-crab.

Edited February 12, 2016 by JFKvsNixon

[sutty27]

Not it doesn't. For all you could know every junior doctor could be over worked by their hospital without the finical incentive not to. You just do not know and cannot claim that it doesn't work as a deterrent.

 

I was thinking of a marine based name for your next identity, how about starfish or crusty-crab? I prefer crusty-crab.

 

And for all you know fines make no difference to the amount of hours doctors work, you can't demonstrate that they act as a deterrent. What we know for certain is that some doctors work too many hours even though the hospital can be fined, and we know for certain that money paid out in fines can't be used by the hospital to pay for patient care.

 

So on the balance of probability fines don't work and only increase the risk to patients.

[sgtkate]

So they are empty threats then by all these people?

 

They are prepared to leave their families because they won't get paid more on Saturdays anymore?

 

I think the 3x wage, and conditions is more of a tempter. Should we match paying their wages even though the healthcare structure is different in those countries?

 

 

 

 

and full circle back to page 9 when I asked:

 

 

 

 

 

No one answered with any figures, and your post #202 claimed that it isn't about overtime, it's about unsocial hours not being paid the same. It's all hair-splitting.

 

As a way to move out of this circle, would it be acceptable if all the current staff continued on their contracts and any new starters be set on, on the new one (or 'a' new one)?

 

I'd say yes to the last line. Ultimately the way the NHS is funded has to change as societies needs change. For me the issue isn't about the contract at all, it's been about how the government has gone about trying to enforce it that's got my back up. The whole 7 day NHS myth, lies about what the contract entails, lies about what the BMA have said, lies about doctors being misled. The whole thing seems to have been more about the government trying to cause mischief than about any cost saving or restructuring measures.

 

Why doesn't the government go to the BMA with it's end goal position, say to them, right we want to achieve this, we have this amount of money, something has to give and work with the BMA to find a reasonable solution rather than just trying once again to impose a particular solution and putting their fingers in their ears and going 'lalalalala, we can't hear you'. Often the unions are as bad, rather than trying to work with employers or the government they create divisions too, but in this particular case I'd say the worse culprit by FAR has been Jeremy Hunt, especially when you read that his own department advised to accept a compromise deal from the BMA back in Jan that he personally vetoed.

[JFKvsNixon]

I'd say yes to the last line. Ultimately the way the NHS is funded has to change as societies needs change. For me the issue isn't about the contract at all, it's been about how the government has gone about trying to enforce it that's got my back up. The whole 7 day NHS myth, lies about what the contract entails, lies about what the BMA have said, lies about doctors being misled. The whole thing seems to have been more about the government trying to cause mischief than about any cost saving or restructuring measures.

 

Why doesn't the government go to the BMA with it's end goal position, say to them, right we want to achieve this, we have this amount of money, something has to give and work with the BMA to find a reasonable solution rather than just trying once again to impose a particular solution and putting their fingers in their ears and going 'lalalalala, we can't hear you'. Often the unions are as bad, rather than trying to work with employers or the government they create divisions too, but in this particular case I'd say the worse culprit by FAR has been Jeremy Hunt, especially when you read that his own department advised to accept a compromise deal from the BMA back in Jan that he personally vetoed.

 

Hunt has form, though.

 

With the nurses and midwives he originally agreed to abide by the independent NHS Pay Review Body recommendations, which was a 1% pay rise, their first since 2009. The treasury agreed to fund it, but Hunt vetoed the plan, and span a web of lies and deceit about the offer which ended up with the Nrses and Midwives striking.

[Anna B]

If the salary is 3x, what is the consultant salary? Surely that is also high?

 

Why on earth would they come back here JFK? As everyone says, better money there, better conditions, better climate, better life. Or come back to this ****hole.

 

If I had a medical degree I'd be on the 'first boat' if they accepted me.

 

 

 

They all had banners saying they'll leave, let them. Will AUS and NZ take thousands of them and pay them all upto 3x as much? I doubt it will happen. I'd be surprised if any go at all because of this. As long as they're in a union and the Tory's are in power, the unions will never let them be motivated, it's not in their interest.

 

"There has been a huge surge in numbers seeking certificates to practise abroad, and some have already lined up jobs

 

Almost 760 doctors were issued with documents by thr General Medical Council in the first four weeks of this year - nearly 200 a week and almost double the usual number. Although they include some older GPs and consultants, the vast majority were disillusioned younger doctors."

Daily Mail, 12.02.16.

 

Having spent some time in Australia, and seen the quality of life there, I very much doubt they'll be back.

[the_bloke]

I'd say yes to the last line. Ultimately the way the NHS is funded has to change as societies needs change. For me the issue isn't about the contract at all, it's been about how the government has gone about trying to enforce it that's got my back up.

 

I totally agree, it's been a heavy handed mess from the start with neither the Government or the BMA looking remotely competent.

 

I'd imagine Hunt has come up with the idea for change, and a bunch of civil servants and NHS bosses ended up putting forward the actual contract changes, of which he's just approved, possibly with his eyes shut. Now he's got to back it all the way, if he backs down from it now then nothing gets changed and he'll probably resign. In the meantime the NHS continues to lose money hand over fist and the 24 hour plan has failed, and will never be attempted again.

[JFKvsNixon]

I totally agree, it's been a heavy handed mess from the start with neither the Government or the BMA looking remotely competent.

 

I'd imagine Hunt has come up with the idea for change, and a bunch of civil servants and NHS bosses ended up putting forward the actual contract changes, of which he's just approved, possibly with his eyes shut. Now he's got to back it all the way, if he backs down from it now then nothing gets changed and he'll probably resign. In the meantime the NHS continues to lose money hand over fist and the 24 hour plan has failed, and will never be attempted again.

 

I disagree, he has form for this with the mishandling of the pay talks with the nurses and midwives.

 

I think that he's a hatchet man for the ideological reforms that the tories want to impose upon the NHS. I think he'll do all the deeply unpopular reforms and then move on, with a much more diplomatic politician coming in and mending the bridges maybe with a few small compromises. The 7 day week I think will be compromised down to a 6 day working week, for example.

 

What 24 hour plan are you talking about?

[the_bloke]

What 24 hour plan are you talking about?

 

You know exactly what I'm talking about especially in the context of this thread. I'll call it the 'affordable 24 hour plan' then as you are itching to be pedantic and exclaim that the NHS is already a 24 hr service.

[JFKvsNixon]

You know exactly what I'm talking about especially in the context of this thread. I'll call it the 'affordable 24 hour plan' then as you are itching to be pedantic and exclaim that the NHS is already a 24 hr service.

 

I'd always thought that that plan was a full 7 day working week. Seriously I didn't know what you meant by 24 hour plan.

[Anna B]

From what I've heard, Junior doctors already work a 7 day week. However to make the NHS work 7 days a week requires the supporting and auxillary staff to work also. And of course the Consultants.

 

I think the battle with the Junior doctors is the thin end of the wedge. Hunt will want to change the contracts of the supporting staff too, who will be much less confident of finding new jobs should they wish to quit.

If he can crush the revolt in the Junior doctors, the rest will come to heal for much less.