Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[redfox]

Then either they, or you as a supporter, need to put forward a credible case as to how the new arrangements compromise patient care.

 

 

Sat as you are in front of your laptop why don't you just look up what the case is that the juniors are making?

 

If you seriously think that these individuals are just in it for the £ you are deluded. Get yourself down to a&e on a friday night - better still take a sick relative, find a highly motivated, highly skilled and a not totally knackered junior doctor and ask them !

[sutty27]

There's a world of difference between a junior doctor working longer hours if they want to, and one being forced to work longer hours.

 

Also, if many departments are struggling to find enough medical staff to currently cover their rotas, then how will they be able to put less staff on during the week?

 

If being forced to work is the issue then why didn't they strike when they were forced to work longer hours than this new contract will permit them to work.

 

I went back a few years just to highlight the fact that they have been forced to work longer hours than the new contact will permit for years.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4100418.stm

They pointed to a survey carried out in December 2004 by the Royal College of Physicians (RCP) which found that most trainee doctors in NHS trusts were forced to work a 91-hour week as a series of night shifts.

 

"These doctors are exhausted - 70% of specialist registrars in one hospital, working the seven consecutive night shifts, slept for an average of two hours per night while contracted to work, and most had problems with sleep during the daytime."

 

Also from 2005

 

A junior doctor claims that he, and his colleagues, are overpaid.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1500129/Your-view-overpaid-doctors.html

He takes home £37,000 a year for "searching for missing heaps of patient notes, running errands and chasing up blood test results",

Edited April 26, 2016 by sutty27

[unbeliever]

 

Sat as you are in front of your laptop why don't you just look up what the case is that the juniors are making?

 

If you seriously think that these individuals are just in it for the £ you are deluded. Get yourself down to a&e on a friday night - better still take a sick relative, find a highly motivated, highly skilled and a not totally knackered junior doctor and ask them !

 

I tried. All I can find is whinging about the destruction of the NHS by unspecified means, complaints (which as far as I can tell are false) about the Health Secretary refusing to negotiate, and complaints about the rights of women doctors (who are to be adversely affected somehow?).

Do you have any links to this information.

 

I don't think I even hinted that doctors are motivated purely by money.

I do think however that this dispute is about pay and conditions as most industrial action is. There's nothing wrong with that as long as one is honest about it.

Edited April 26, 2016 by unbeliever

[redfox]

Try harder -

 

it took me 30 seconds

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/29/junior-doctors-contract-row-nhs-explainer-health

 

 

You could always look on the BMA website too - from behind your laptop

[sutty27]

I tried. All I can find is whinging about the destruction of the NHS by unspecified means, complaints (which as far as I can tell are false) about the Health Secretary refusing to negotiate, and complaints about the rights of women doctors (who are to be adversely affected somehow?).

Do you have any links to this information.

 

That's about all I can find, but I can find plenty that shows the old contract put patients and doctors at risk, the new contract will make patients and doctors safer without adversely affecting doctors.

[unbeliever]

Try harder -

 

it took me 30 seconds

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/29/junior-doctors-contract-row-nhs-explainer-health

 

 

You could always look on the BMA website too - from behind your laptop

 

Thanks. Pay and conditions then.

[sutty27]

Try harder -

 

it took me 30 seconds

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/29/junior-doctors-contract-row-nhs-explainer-health

 

 

You could always look on the BMA website too - from behind your laptop

 

What does the BMA say?

 

We urge the government not to impose a contract that is unsafe and unfair.

 

Its very clear that the old contract is unsafe and the new contract is much safer.

[JFKvsNixon]

Right. That's a legitimate point. It has to weighed of course against the world of difference between being treated by a doctor who's done a 91 hour week and one who's done 72. And the world of difference between being treated by a doctor on Saturday who's a bit miffed at having to be at work and not being treated at all.

Still a valid point. Is that what the BMA or the doctors themselves have said, or is it your own speculation?

 

I would have thought that it's common sense that the individuals themselves are the best judge on what they are capable of working at any given moment? If a junior doctor does chose to work too many hours beyond what they're capable off, then that is old fashioned negligence on the individual doctors part.

 

 

 

They can move activity (operations, training etc) from Monday-Friday to Saturday. The activity can follow the doctors.

 

It's still tricky to achieve this as you need minimum numbers in theatre, and often due to the belt tightening, many places are working to these numbers. Unless you're talking of not operating for a couple of sessions during the week and then doing those operations on the weekend.

 

I struggle to see the point of this because your increasing you costs without increasing productivity. There's also the issue of support services not associated with the NHS not working on the weekend such as the social services.

 

So you'd be the position of the NHS woking a normal day on the Saturday, but social services not. So the hospital wards may struggle to discharge some of their patients, meaning that new patients will not be able to be admitted for their treatment.

 

So in effect, it may well be lead to a case of a decreased productivity and increased costs.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 15:04 ----------

 

If being forced to work is the issue then why didn't they strike when they were forced to work longer hours than this new contract will permit them to work.

 

I went back a few years just to highlight the fact that they have been forced to work longer hours than the new contact will permit for years.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4100418.stm

They pointed to a survey carried out in December 2004 by the Royal College of Physicians (RCP) which found that most trainee doctors in NHS trusts were forced to work a 91-hour week as a series of night shifts.

 

"These doctors are exhausted - 70% of specialist registrars in one hospital, working the seven consecutive night shifts, slept for an average of two hours per night while contracted to work, and most had problems with sleep during the daytime."

 

Also from 2005

 

A junior doctor claims that he, and his colleagues, are overpaid.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1500129/Your-view-overpaid-doctors.html

He takes home £37,000 a year for "searching for missing heaps of patient notes, running errands and chasing up blood test results",

 

The European working time directive was implemented into the junior doctors working hours in 2009.

[unbeliever]

I would have thought that it's common sense that the individuals themselves are the best judge on what they are capable of working at any given moment? If a junior doctor does chose to work too many hours beyond what they're capable off, then that is old fashioned negligence on the individual doctors part.

 

 

 

 

 

It's still tricky to achieve this as you need minimum numbers in theatre, and often due to the belt tightening, many places are working to these numbers. Unless you're talking of not operating for a couple of sessions during the week and then doing those operations on the weekend.

 

I struggle to see the point of this because your increasing you costs without increasing productivity. There's also the issue of support services not associated with the NHS not working on the weekend such as the social services.

 

So you'd be the position of the NHS woking a normal day on the Saturday, but social services not. So the hospital wards may struggle to discharge some of their patients, meaning that new patients will not be able to be admitted for their treatment.

 

So in effect, it may well be lead to a case of a decreased productivity and increased costs.

 

I would have thought neutral or positive on productivity and the same on costs.

But with the benefit of having more doctors around on Saturday.

 

Almost nobody can work 91 hours in a week and not have their performance suffer.

If a doctor honestly considers themselves unfit for work they can call in sick. I would hope that they would do so.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 15:06 ----------

 

The European working time directive was implemented into the junior doctors working hours in 2009.

 

With an opt-out which it seems that majority elect (perhaps under pressure [speculation on my part]) to take advantage of.

[redfox]

What does the BMA say?

 

We urge the government not to impose a contract that is unsafe and unfair.

 

Its very clear that the old contract is unsafe and the new contract is much safer.

 

Gosh - your an expert on this then - give jeremy hunt a ring and tell him you can help in the negotiations - best not eh he is doing a good enough job cocking them on his own - we don't want another idiot involved.

 

You do not know what your talking about. Have you ever discussed this with a doctor, nurse - or anyone who is actually involved?