Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[sutty27]

I would have thought that it's common sense that the individuals themselves are the best judge on what they are capable of working at any given moment? If a junior doctor does chose to work too many hours beyond what they're capable off, then that is old fashioned negligence on the individual doctors part.

 

 

All the evidence shows that many were working too many hours, many were forced to work these long hours, they were putting patients and themselves at risk, yet they didn't have the common sense to refuse to work, they didn't have the common sense to go on strike until the government push a new contract onto them which cuts the number of hours they can work thereby making patients and doctors safer. Patient safety is clearly not their concern.

[unbeliever]

Gosh - your an expert on this then - give jeremy hunt a ring and tell him you can help in the negotiations - best not eh he is doing a good enough job cocking them on his own - we don't want another idiot involved.

 

You do not know what your talking about. Have you ever discussed this with a doctor, nurse - or anyone who is actually involved?

 

We're all discussing this as laymen. Try not to get too excited.

All I'm asking for is either an honest statement that it's about pay and conditions or an explanation of how a new contract which on the face of it eliminates various unsafe practises can be a threat to safety.

[JFKvsNixon]

I would have thought neutral or positive on productivity and the same on costs.

But with the benefit of having more doctors around on Saturday.

 

Almost nobody can work 91 hours in a week and not have their performance suffer.

If a doctor honestly considers themselves unfit for work they can call in sick. I would hope that they would do so.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 15:06 ----------

 

 

With an opt-out which it seems that majority elect (perhaps under pressure [speculation on my part]) to take advantage of.

 

If you're running the facilities for an extra day, then there's going to be extra associated costs?

 

Or are you talking about mothballing a hospital's business for equivalent of a shift on a Saturday? This will still be a 5 day NHS, with the productive days moved, which leads to the question, why bother?

[sutty27]

 

The European working time directive was implemented into the junior doctors working hours in 2009.

 

Yep and they continued to work over the permitted hours and continued to put themselves and their patients at risk, odd that they go on strike after a new contract that clearly makes them and patients safer.

[JFKvsNixon]

With an opt-out which it seems that majority elect (perhaps under pressure [speculation on my part]) to take advantage of.

 

The rotas would have been written to take into account the European working time directives. Sure, some junior doctors would have worked extra to cover holes in the rotas, but it wasn't expected of them.

[redfox]

We're all discussing this as laymen. Try not to get too excited.

All I'm asking for is either an honest statement that it's about pay and conditions or an explanation of how a new contract which on the face of it eliminates various unsafe practises can be a threat to safety.

 

I wasn't replying to your posts but Sutty -

 

 

I can't see why you can't do a little research on the topic yourself though.

 

I will try and find something that passes for facts - which is not all that easy given the battle lines that have been drawn here.

[JFKvsNixon]

Yep and they continued to work over the permitted hours and continued to put themselves and their patients at risk, odd that they go on strike after a new contract that clearly makes them and patients safer.

 

To be honest I find your position very odd. You're trying to argue that the junior doctors are striking because they being forced to work less hours for more pay.

[sutty27]

Gosh - your an expert on this then - give jeremy hunt a ring and tell him you can help in the negotiations - best not eh he is doing a good enough job cocking them on his own - we don't want another idiot involved.

 

You do not know what your talking about. Have you ever discussed this with a doctor, nurse - or anyone who is actually involved?

 

Jeremy hunt isn't the negotiator, the chief negotiator is David Dalton.

[unbeliever]

If you're running the facilities for an extra day, then there's going to be extra associated costs?

 

Or are you talking about mothballing a hospital's business for equivalent of a shift on a Saturday? This will still be a 5 day NHS, with the productive days moved, which leads to the question, why bother?

 

The facilities surely continue to operate at weekends.

There are still patients after all. And any patient successfully treated on Saturday, won't need that treatment on Monday. Job done.

 

Look I can see that you honestly want to get to the truth of the matter. I hope you can see that I do as well. We're guessing though. I perhaps have an instinct one way and you have one the other.

 

Have you seen any information put out by the BMA or some other representative of the doctors which could convince a objective person that these changes do create a net increase in risk to the safety of staff and/or patients?

[sutty27]

To be honest I find your position very odd. You're trying to argue that the junior doctors are striking because they being forced to work less hours for more pay.

 

Its the doctors position that is odd, before the new contract some worked longer hours and put patients and themselves at risk, yet they didn't strike, now you say they are striking because of the long hours they will be forced to work.