Junior Doctors row: 98% vote to strike

[999tigger]

The number of doctors employed by the NHS has risen by over 27% in the last 12 years. 7/5-1=0.2 (20%). So they already have the extra doctors to cover an extra day of the week.

http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/key-statistics-on-the-nhs

 

Perhaps a 7 day NHS would be going too far (from the arguments you're making).

But for now we're talking about a 6 day NHS w.r.t. a subset of doctors.

It's clearly reasonable. And it looks nothing like a threat to the NHS.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 15:42 ----------

 

 

You haven't commented on the real issues.

All you've done is attack people who disagree with you.

Other than posting a link which actually said the opposite of what you say.

Oh and got your finger stuck down on the emoticon button apparently.

 

You're not in a strong position to criticise others for poor debate tactics.

Please, if you have a case to make, you know using facts and such, by all means make it.

 

 

Isnt that assuming there were enough Drs in the first place and the level of demand has remained constant?

[JFKvsNixon]

The number of doctors employed by the NHS has risen by over 27% in the last 12 years. 7/5-1=0.2 (20%). So they already have the extra doctors to cover an extra day of the week.

http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/key-statistics-on-the-nhs

 

Perhaps a 7 day NHS would be going too far (from the arguments you're making).

But for now we're talking about a 6 day NHS w.r.t. a subset of doctors.

It's clearly reasonable. And it looks nothing like a threat to the NHS.

 

Come on, if only all life's problems were as simple as the ones your making out the NHS is facing, they'd have been solved ages ago.

 

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that, so the extra 27% of doctors that have been taken on in the last 12 years doesn't mean that there's 27% slack in the system now which can be moved to work the weekends.

[Cyclone]

Because in the last 12 years the population hasn't grown, aged and got sicker. Not at all.

[unbeliever]

Come on, if only all life's problems were as simple as the ones your making out the NHS is facing, they'd have been solved ages ago.

 

Unfortunately the real world isn't like that, so the extra 27% of doctors that have been taken on in the last 12 years doesn't mean that there's 27% slack in the system now which can be moved to work the weekends.

 

No but there might be.

You said that it might be that spreading the doctors out into Saturdays would mean that there weren't enough around at any one time to for example perform surgeries. And that they should take on more people if they want to full staff Saturdays.

If the number of doctors (and other staff) has been continuously increasing, then surely they have taken that step.

 

I honestly think that there's a reasonable case to push toward a 6 day NHS. i.e. to make all aspects of the NHS fully operational on Saturdays, as so many businesses do.

If it turns out to be for the good, we can look again at 7 day.

 

Because in the last 12 years the population hasn't grown, aged and got sicker. Not at all.

 

Think about this perhaps.

If you're operating a 5 day NHS and you need to handle more patients, then in addition to more staff, you also need more theatres. If you instead switch to a 6 day NHS you can effectively handle more patients without constructing more theatres. That's an efficiency right there.

[sutty27]

 

Think about this perhaps.

If you're operating a 5 day NHS and you need to handle more patients, then in addition to more staff, you also need more theatres. If you instead switch to a 6 day NHS you can effectively handle more patients without constructing more theatres. That's an efficiency right there.

 

Spot on, this method has been used successfully in the private sector.

[JFKvsNixon]

No but there might be.

You said that it might be that spreading the doctors out into Saturdays would mean that there weren't enough around at any one time to for example perform surgeries. And that they should take on more people if they want to full staff Saturdays.

If the number of doctors (and other staff) has been continuously increasing, then surely they have taken that step.

 

I honestly think that there's a reasonable case to push toward a 6 day NHS. i.e. to make all aspects of the NHS fully operational on Saturdays, as so many businesses do.

If it turns out to be for the good, we can look again at 7 day.

 

 

 

Think about this perhaps.

If you're operating a 5 day NHS and you need to handle more patients, then in addition to more staff, you also need more theatres. If you instead switch to a 6 day NHS you can effectively handle more patients without constructing more theatres. That's an efficiency right there.

 

No, the increases in the amount of staff has led to the what the NHS is currently doing. So, to use the operating theatre example, there are enough doctors around to make sure that the operating theatres are fully utilised during the week.

 

Another example of the increase in doctors numbers would be that there are enough junior doctors around to be able to cover the changes instigated by the European time working directive.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 16:04 ----------

 

Spot on, this method has been used successfully in the private sector.

 

Nobody is arguing against this, what the issue is that extra funds need to made available to cover the associated costs of working the extra days.

[redfox]

But you choose to ignore them in order to score political point attacking an MP and party you hate.

 

I am wholly disinterested in party politics -and I certainly don't 'hate' any party - so your wrong on that one.

 

What facts am I ignoring ?

 

Are you using 'unknowing' as another persona ?

[unbeliever]

No, the increases in the amount of staff has led to the what the NHS is currently doing. So, to use the operating theatre example, there are enough doctors around to make sure that the operating theatres are fully utilised during the week.

 

Another example of the increase in doctors numbers would be that there are enough junior doctors around to be able to cover the changes instigated by the European time working directive.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 16:04 ----------

 

 

Nobody is arguing against this, what the issue is that extra funds need to made available to cover the associated costs of working the extra days.

 

You make legitimate points. But then so do those making the reverse case.

What makes most sense to me is that the government think that a switch to 6 day full working will help (that could indeed be wrong) and the doctors are unhappy that their pay and conditions have been changed in such a way as to reduce their working flexibility.

All this talk of threats to patient safety is hot air as far as I can tell.

 

---------- Post added 26-04-2016 at 16:15 ----------

 

Nobody is arguing against this, what the issue is that extra funds need to made available to cover the associated costs of working the extra days.

 

NHS funding has been going up year on year for many years.

Do you know that the necessary resources are not available or do you just worry that they might not be.

[L00b]

What makes most sense to me is that the government think that a switch to 6 day full working will help (that could indeed be wrong) and the doctors are unhappy that their pay and conditions have been changed in such a way as to reduce their working flexibility.

Not been following this particular topic assiduously, but I'm generally in agreement with unbeliever here.

 

It's the NHS junior doctors' turn to find out that there's still no such thing as magic money trees, and that careful resources management and husbanding sometimes comes at the expense of some flexibility and earnings, until better days of affluence when Labour eventually returns to the tiller.

 

It's not as if they don't have skills that are highly valued and highly in demand everywhere, so if the new deal is such a bum, they should vote with their feet instead of striking. Faced with a (worse than it already is-) medical brain drain, the Gvt would soon cop on.

[JFKvsNixon]

NHS funding has been going up year on year for many years.

Do you know that the necessary resources are not available or do you just worry that they might not be.

 

The NHS funding has increased, but nearly enough to cover the challenges that Health care price inflation, increasing population, ageing population and increased illnesses has brought about.

 

You also have to take into account what we spend on the NHS and peoples expectations of it. Compared to other comparable countries, we spend less and maybe people expect more of the NHS. So this is another challenge that the NHS has had to overcome.