Alan Ladd Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I challenge the concept of the neo fascist parties being from "the right". Once you get past the racist nationalism it seems to me they are centrists who seem to wish to impose a command economy and control by dictat. This is as close to Maoist/Leninist as you can get. Albeit in thought rather than action, the extreme left has never espoused racism. The extreme right, it seems to me, is exemplified best in the US model, small government, low tax, self reliance, low/no welfare. Its downsides are selfishness, no gun control, extremes of wealth and poverty. Regarding the French situation and Le Pen. If she becomes President of France the situation becomes very dangerous for that country. However, from time to time things need to come to a head, and it may be that the only possible outcome is civil war, if that is the case, so be it. The USA needed the civil war to sort out the running sore of slavery, the French and others including ourselves may need to actually fight if we are to remove the cancerous curse of militant Islam from our shores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scania Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 I've never been really pro or anti the EU up till now. I've seen it as a useful ally in many areas and a bit of a cumbersome beast in others. I've never really seen it have a DIRECT influence on my life to be honest so I've not let it factor into any political decisions. I partially support the freedom of movement, I support the idea, but for it to work it needs to be only between countries of similar economic position. Over the last few months, ignoring a few posters on here, we seem to be getting further and further away from Europe politically. I'd say in general Britain is actually becoming more left-wing. Compare the Tories now to the Tories of say 20 years ago. They are far more central than they were (John Major was an anomaly in the same vein as Blair was for Labour). Labour are also moving leftwards (jury clearly still out on whether they will remain so). Support for UKIP seems to be falling. BNP who? EDL are laughable and not a political party anyway. Greens have risen albeit slowly. As Loob says, we can all sit here and pretend the recent Paris attacks are responsible, but they are a v small part of it. Poland had no attacks yet has drastically lurched the right. Germany appears to be likely to vote more right wing moving from central conservatism. For the first time I genuinely want us out of Europe as I look at our neighbours with horror and fear. We have nothing to gain by being associated with parties still viewed as neo-Nazi in many quarters. Yes the FN has 'smartened' up in recent times, but they are still the French BNP at their heart. Understandable voting - Maybe. Something the UK should support - No. As much hatred and loathing there is for UKIP, is there a similar pattern happening here? They did get a huge vote in the last election, albeit it was too widespread to make much difference politically, but the votes were there nonetheless. Could recent events push people away from the EU? Not so much in support of UKIP, but out of sheer fear of immigration levels and the threat of terrorism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 As much hatred and loathing there is for UKIP, is there a similar pattern happening here? They did get a huge vote in the last election, albeit it was too widespread to make much difference politically, but the votes were there nonetheless. Could recent events push people away from the EU? Not so much in support of UKIP, but out of sheer fear of immigration levels and the threat of terrorism? I think you missed my point. I was thinking we should leave the EU so we are no longer associated with neo-Nazi uprisings across Europe, whereas you seem to be saying we should leave the EU because we should support our own neo-Nazi uprising? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) I think you missed my point. I was thinking we should leave the EU so we are no longer associated with neo-Nazi uprisings across Europe, whereas you seem to be saying we should leave the EU because we should support our own neo-Nazi uprising? Your point is misconceived: neither Law & Justice in Poland nor the modern-day Front National in France can be qualified as "neo-Nazi" or "fascist", nor voting for them as a "neo-Nazi uprising", under any stretches of meaning. On the other hand, Golden Dawn in Greece, yes - absolutely. But don't mistake nationalist parties and tendencies for Nazism or fascism. That's misrepresenting and disparaging the debate with just as much rethoric. Wanting to leave the EU because the harder right is making political inroads strikes me as cowardice. Better work on the EU as Cameron and allies are reportedly doing, to make into a better organisation that will impede and then forestall this political trend: the main reason why the harder right is making such inroads is down to the EU's agonising procrastination in the face of serious recent issues such as the Greek debt and unchecked immigration. The reason I'm leaning ever more anti-EU these days is because France and Germany are ultimately responsible for all of these issues and omissions: they effectively run Brussels these days and never miss an opportunity to remind all and sundry, this isn't a club of members equal before the law anymore. Merkel's outright economical blackmail of Balkan EU member states to stop them following EU ('Dublin') Rules about this summer's immigration flow is the straw that broke my camel's back. Edited December 7, 2015 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Your point is misconceived: neither Law & Justice in Poland nor the modern-day Front National in France can be qualified as "neo-Nazi" or "fascist", nor voting for them as a "neo-Nazi uprising", under any stretches of meaning. On the other hand, Golden Dawn in Greece, yes - absolutely. But don't mistake nationalist parties and tendencies for Nazism or fascism. That's misrepresenting and disparaging the debate with just as much rethoric. Wanting to leave the EU because the harder right is making political inroads strikes me as cowardice. Better work on the EU as Cameron and allies are reportedly doing, to make into a better organisation that will impede and then forestall this political trend: the main reason why the harder right is making such inroads is down to the EU's agonising procrastination in the face of serious recent issues such as the Greek debt and unchecked immigration. The reason I'm leaning ever more anti-EU these days is because France and Germany are ultimately responsible for all of these issues and omissions: they effectively run Brussels these days and never miss an opportunity to remind all and sundry, this isn't a club of members equal before the law anymore. Merkel's outright economical blackmail of Balkan EU member states to stop them following EU ('Dublin') Rules about this summer's immigration flow is the straw that broke my camel's back. Sorry, it was more a gentle joke at Scania that was all. I don't really think FN or Law & Justice are neo-Nazi, but they are worrying. Very worrying. They are the start of a repeat of the 1930s and we know where that led. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Sorry, it was more a gentle joke at Scania that was all. I don't really think FN or Law & Justice are neo-Nazi, but they are worrying. Very worrying. They are the start of a repeat of the 1930s and we know where that led. You actually think the FN wants to annex neighbouring countries to France and then take over the whole of Europe and possibly the world? I think the comparison with Nazi Germany in the 30's is fanciful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 You actually think the FN wants to annex neighbouring countries to France and then take over the whole of Europe and possibly the world? I think the comparison with Nazi Germany in the 30's is fanciful. I hope so, but I'm honestly not so sure. Welcome back Ron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeMaquis Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 The FN's first round leads in six regions have all been lost in the 2nd round thanks to tactical voting and high turnouts. Tant mieux. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/dec/13/french-regional-elections-2015-live Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quik Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 The FN's first round leads in six regions have all been lost in the 2nd round thanks to tactical voting and high turnouts. Tant mieux. http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/dec/13/french-regional-elections-2015-live A very dangerous business. Rigging the game against that many voters will not be without consequence I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLAR Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 A very dangerous business. Rigging the game against that many voters will not be without consequence I fear. No rigging involved. Just democracy, that's all. What exactly do you object to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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