Would you join the British Armed Forces?

[JFKvsNixon]

But isn't that what you're doing JFK

 

Nope, I've looked a broad selection of definitions. Not just one. That sort of thing was drilled into me whilst I was at uni years ago.

[Solomon1]

Aren't you capable of a little empathy?

 

Wow. Really?

 

I'm the one telling you that killing in war

 

Is still murder in my eyes

 

And you're asking ME to be more empathetic?

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2015 at 23:33 ----------

 

So what about the men and women who made the weapons for war, were they murderers too?

 

Good question, what do you think?

[tinfoilhat]

So what about the men and women who made the weapons for war, were they murderers too?

 

Aiding and abetting. Send 'em dahn!!!!

[Solomon1]

Nope, I've looked a broad selection of definitions. Not just one. That sort of thing was drilled into me whilst I was at uni years ago.

 

Congratulations

[JFKvsNixon]

Wow. Really?

 

I'm the one telling you that killing in war

 

Is still murder in my eyes

 

And you're asking ME to be more empathetic?

 

Yes, why are you struggling with this??????

 

I'm talking about ordinary people that were forced into making huge life changing sacrifices, that many never got over, by the actions of a fascist regime. And all you can do judge them to be murderers!

 

I don't know about you, I judge a murderer to be pejorative term, so you have absolutely no understanding of the situation that our civilian soldiers found themselves to be in.

 

I respect pacifism, i do not have a problem with it one little bit. What I do have a problem with is those that disrespect others that made sacrifices that they were not prepared to make themselves.

[999tigger]

I wasn't there, so I don't know dude

 

All I DO know

 

Is that had I been forced to enlist, fight and kill

 

I would have been HONEST with myself

 

That I was MURDERING other humans

 

Human beings just like me

 

With wives, daughters, sisters, brothers and fathers

 

 

You are wrong on this. I was going to raise it before but a soldier who kills in the course of duty is not a murderer unless he has breached rules such as the Geneva Convention.

 

Good job you were never enlisted.

[Solomon1]

Yes, why are you struggling with this??????

 

I'm talking about ordinary people that were forced into making huge life changing sacrifices, that many never got over, by the actions of a fascist regime. And all you can do judge them to be murderers!

 

I don't know about you, I judge a murderer to be pejorative term, so you have absolutely no understanding of the situation that our civilian soldiers found themselves to be in.

 

I respect pacifism, i do not have a problem with it one little bit. What I do have a problem with is those that disrespect others that made sacrifices that they were not prepared to make themselves.

 

Clearly we are talking at odds here man

 

You are making assumptions

 

About what I have said and what I think

 

That just isn't the case

 

And I'm going to bed now

 

So if you want we can hammer it out another time or PM me

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2015 at 23:46 ----------

 

Good job you were never enlisted

 

Why?

 

Because I would have run around

 

Clutching my head and shouting

 

STOP MURDERING EVERYONE PEEEPLE!!!

 

?

 

 

[onewheeldave]

Thinking about Hans (I'm back in WW2 here) might have a loving fräulein at home looking after the two kids, hansel and gretel and how they're going to struggle.......in the meantime hans hasn't mucked about (the Germans were by far the most effecient soldiers in WW2) and shot me dead. I've never been near a warzone and even I know that - although if anyone has been in a warzone I'm happy to be corrected.

 

Well, get yourself out of WW2, cos the post you're replying to (mine) said 'warzones', which, while it includes WW2, is refering to warzones in general, including the technologisised messes currently being inflicted on both the populations of the middle east, and, the 'civilised worlds' soldiers out there doing the work of politicians.

 

And yes, if you're out there and you don't shoot Hans/Abdul, Hans/Abdul will likley shoot you, but, my post was rebuting your claim that soldiers can't be aware/reflect on the fact that Hans/Abdul is a human being with family. You were wrong, some do, and, maybe a lot of soldiers who end up shot, were ones who, aware of the 'enemies' humanity, unable to pull the trigger, on that occasion.

[tinfoilhat]

Well, get yourself out of WW2, cos the post you're replying to (mine) said 'warzones', which, while it includes WW2, is refering to warzones in general, including the technologisised messes currently being inflicted on both the populations of the middle east, and, the 'civilised worlds' soldiers out there doing the work of politicians.

 

And yes, if you're out there and you don't shoot Hans/Abdul, Hans/Abdul will likley shoot you, but, my post was rebuting your claim that soldiers can't be aware/reflect on the fact that Hans/Abdul is a human being with family. You were wrong, some do, and, maybe a lot of soldiers who end up shot, were ones who, aware of the 'enemies' humanity, unable to pull the trigger, on that occasion.

 

I don't doubt that soldiers do reflect on who they might have killed but I'd suggest they get some level of support quite soon after and, as per the rules of engagement in Afghanistan, the people they have killed have made a real effort to kill them. What they can't do (and you and soloman didn't infer differently) is reflect and consider at the time.

 

Yes, I agree, certain conflicts have been pointless and costly.

[Obelix]

 

I did want to go to a combat zone though, that was my job ultimately and to do it under fire with lives on the line would have been exhilarating. I'm being v honest here.

 

What was the quote from Churchill, "There is nothing more exhilerating to being shot at without result" or similar?

 

---------- Post added 15-12-2015 at 10:01 ----------

 

I prefer Wiktionary's first definition, given already:

 

Murder: "An act of deliberate killing of another being, especially a human"

 

You can try and claim that in any way you like as being accurate, however it misses out a few important things.

 

You might want to consider Coke's position which is a bit more authoritative than the wacky wiktionary...

 

"when a person, of sound memory and discretion, unlawfully kills any reasonable creature in being and under the king's peace, with malice aforethought, either express or implied"

 

important points...

 

1. In war, killing is not unlawful unless it's against the various Rules of War, especially the Hague conventions

2. Malice aforethought - there has to be both actus reus and also mens rea. Thats something else you missed and needs to be clarified.