Campaign grows to switch the building of HS2 station to Sheffield city

[Andy C]

When talking about such investment in rail infrastructure we are talking about something that has to be planned as a strategy a long time in advance, it isn't something that can just happen overnight. In terms of things that have been announced they need seperating into short term, medium term and long term.

 

Short term: The new Northern rail franchise is beginning to introduce new and cascaded rolling stock and refurbish old rolling stock. It is also introducing more services and some new routes. Similar things are planned for the new East Midlands franchise in the coming years.

 

Medium term: On the Hope Valley line (Sheffield-Manchester) the track through Dore & Totley station is to be doubled, with a second platform and footbridge built, a passing loop is also to be build in the Hope Valley so express passenger trains can overtake freight trains. These two investments will create capacity for a third limited stop train an hour to run between Sheffield and Manchester and also to reduce delays caused by the single track section at Dore. Further upgrades on this line is limited in possibility due to the sensitive nature of the route through the Peak District National Park.

 

There are also other rail projects under way in the North, principally centered around Manchester.

 

Long term:

 

HS2 is designed as Britain's first brand new main line railway in many years. The existing East Coast, Midland and West Coast main lines into London are very close to capacity and forecast to become full in the next few years. Additionally stations such as Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street, Sheffield and Leeds are struggling to fit any more trains in. HS2 will be built from London Euston to Birmingham and Birmingham to Leeds/Manchester to modern high speed standards so the long distance expresses can move onto the new line freeing up much needed capacity for local trains and freight on the existing lines.

 

The Transpennine main line is Liverpool-Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds-Hull/York-Scarborough/Middlesborough/Newcastle. The core from Leeds to Manchester has trains every 15 minutes and is very busy. There have been all sorts of talk of upgrades and electrification but the terrain across the pennines is proving restrictive.

 

HS3 would be a brand new main line from Leeds to Manchester linking the two northern forks of HS2 with trains feeding in from across the north at both ends. Again, taking long distance express traffic off the existing Transpennine main line will allow the existing capacity to be utilised for better local services and freight whilst speeding up longer journeys.

 

Part of the package alongside building HS2 is also investing in and evolving local transport networks to feed into the new high speed stations. For example at the East Midlands station in Toton it is proposed Sheffield-Nottingham trains will be rerouted to serve it and Nottingham trams will be extended to it plus new links to Derby too. There will also of course be a big station car park for passengers, easily accessed from the M1. Investment is also already underway in Birmingham too, with a tram extension planned to the new HS2 station.

 

Of course, whilst HS2 is primarily about rail capacity, the faster journey times also creates economic benefits as the distance you can travel for commuting or business meetings within a tolerable amount of time gets further! Therefore it affects decisions about locating businesses (and therefore employment) and house buying. With more people and economic activity comes more shops, restaurants, hotels and more.

 

Unfortunately Sheffield politicians and the Chamber of Commerce chose to campaign for a station in Sheffield City Centre, rather than on the actual high speed line! The original proposal was for the HS2 line to pass through the Meadowhall area alongside the Tinsley viaduct and stop at Meadowhall Interchange with a big car park by the M1, local train connections, improved tram network feeding in and of course there is a bus station. The high speed line now won't be coming to Sheffield, instead going direct to Leeds, with a select number of "classic compatable" trains leaving the high speed line at Clay Cross and joining the existing Midland Mainline to run at existing speeds through Chesterfield and Dronfield into Sheffield station, possibly then continuing on the existing network towards Wakefield then rejoining the high speed line for the run into Leeds. So Sheffield will have HS2 trains linking Sheffield with Leeds, Birmingham and London, just not on the high speed line when coming through Sheffield. This also presents a problem at Sheffield station though, as there isn't capacity for more trains, so local trains will have to be cut to make room - exactly the opposite of what HS2 is supposed to be achieving! The talk is for local commuter trains in Sheffield to be replaced by tram-trains.

 

Whether Sheffield benefits from HS3 will probably depend on the route it takes, it is highly likely to be north of Sheffield and of course with Sheffield not being directly on HS2 that doesn't help either, but it is still quite feasible that through trains could run from Sheffield onto HS3 - maybe with an upgrade of the Sheffield-Huddersfield line?

 

What we need is instead of parochial, ill informed anti new railway campaigns, we should be driving for how we'd like the new railways to benefit us as a city. Although of course Sheffield is great, why would we ever want to travel anywhere else....

 

And.... 

 

yes, John Prescott outlined a 'Crossrail for the North' vision years ago. George Osbourne announced Northern Powerhouse 5 years ago and now Boris Johnson is announcing it. Plus mumbling something about buses that isn't new.

 

Incidentally Crossrail still isn't running in London. No more Boris buses being built either as far as I'm aware. Didn't Boris do well as mayor.

 

What would be good to be able to replicate in the north though is the way Crossrail was funded - much of the money was contributed by property companies and other businesses that stood to benefit greatly from the new line and stations.

Edited July 28, 2019 by Andy C

[Guest]

On 28/07/2019 at 13:17, Andy C said:

Unfortunately Sheffield politicians and the Chamber of Commerce chose to campaign for a station in Sheffield City Centre, rather than on the actual high speed line! The original proposal was for the HS2 line to pass through the Meadowhall area alongside the Tinsley viaduct and stop at Meadowhall Interchange with a big car park by the M1, local train connections, improved tram network feeding in and of course there is a bus station. The high speed line now won't be coming to Sheffield, instead going direct to Leeds, with a select number of "classic compatable" trains leaving the high speed line at Clay Cross and joining the existing Midland Mainline to run at existing speeds through Chesterfield and Dronfield into Sheffield station, possibly then continuing on the existing network towards Wakefield then rejoining the high speed line for the run into Leeds. So Sheffield will have HS2 trains linking Sheffield with Leeds, Birmingham and London, just not on the high speed line when coming through Sheffield. This also presents a problem at Sheffield station though, as there isn't capacity for more trains, so local trains will have to be cut to make room - exactly the opposite of what HS2 is supposed to be achieving! The talk is for local commuter trains in Sheffield to be replaced by tram-trains.

I still don't understand why this was allowed to happen. The report should just have started with "there is no capacity at Sheffield Midland, put it somewhere else". Moving local services away from the station is mind-bogglingly stupid.

Anyone that has to sit on a train getting annoyed waiting for a platform to become free is surely going to be overjoyed by this...honest  Hey let's cram even more services in so we can be even later than we were before or maybe force us to walk to a tram stop which somehow would have to cope with a whole load of new tram services? Or am I getting that wrong?

[Annie Bynnol]

Sheffield City Council did not propose anything new.

Of the final two routes then on offer by the Government the Council wanted the Beighton Victoria Chapeltown route which would have created a HS2 station at Nunnery/Victoria thus encouraging development in that area.

 

The Government chose the Meadowhall (because it was cheaper) route which they later abandoned for an even cheaper route further east towards Mexborough.

 

The lack of planning for the eastern spur of HS2 prooves that it has effectively been abandoned.

 

The purpose of HS2 was always to replace the WCML routes to Manchester and Liverpool.

The  failure of the WCML upgrade in the 90s proved that a new route was essential and that similar upgrades were too expensive and disruptive.

 

HS3 is currently just a doodle and will never be High Speed.

 

In 2022 there will be a significant increase in journey times from Sheffield to London.

 

 

[Andy C]

21 hours ago, probedb said:

I still don't understand why this was allowed to happen. The report should just have started with "there is no capacity at Sheffield Midland, put it somewhere else". Moving local services away from the station is mind-bogglingly stupid.

Anyone that has to sit on a train getting annoyed waiting for a platform to become free is surely going to be overjoyed by this...honest  Hey let's cram even more services in so we can be even later than we were before or maybe force us to walk to a tram stop which somehow would have to cope with a whole load of new tram services? Or am I getting that wrong?

I think the idea is the local Doncaster-Sheffield all station trains will be removed freeing up capacity at Sheffield station for the HS2 trains to Leeds/Birmingham/London and a new tram train service will run Sheffield City Centre to Doncaster town and Doncaster Airport. Whether the tram trains is from the Sheffield Station tram stop or Sheffield Cathedral isn't mentioned, however I think there is hope for major investment in the tram network to add lots of new tram train lines including one to Waverley/AMP and maybe one to Stocksbridge so what trams do in Sheffield City Centre may look different by then.

[Chez2]

2 hours ago, Andy C said:

I think the idea is the local Doncaster-Sheffield all station trains will be removed freeing up capacity at Sheffield station for the HS2 trains to Leeds/Birmingham/London and a new tram train service will run Sheffield City Centre to Doncaster town and Doncaster Airport. Whether the tram trains is from the Sheffield Station tram stop or Sheffield Cathedral isn't mentioned, however I think there is hope for major investment in the tram network to add lots of new tram train lines including one to Waverley/AMP and maybe one to Stocksbridge so what trams do in Sheffield City Centre may look different by then.

There is a decent service from Doncaster and Retford to London, much better than from Sheffield.  Are there plans to change these two routes?

[ECCOnoob]

1 hour ago, Chez2 said:

There is a decent service from Doncaster and Retford to London, much better than from Sheffield.  Are there plans to change these two routes?

Im not overly convinced by that.

 

Its certainly not better if your dont live within a short distance from either station.       Yes, the line itself has shorter journey times from yorkshire down to the capital but factor in communting and/or additional waiting time getting to and interchanging and any time saving is completely lost.

 

Secondly, from my own experiences of the East Coast Mainline - it always seems to be the one with problems.   Its wholly oversubscribed because every TOC seems to want to fight to run a service on it, its clearly much busier with passengers which impacts the service levels, overcrowding and stations - plus there are frequent delays due to technical faults, power failures, signaling or otherwise.

 

The MML may not (yet) have the same prestige or the shiny new trains, but from my own experience it is rarely struck by long delays (certainly noticably lesser than ECML), the trains, whilst older are still half decent and the convenience of a direct service from Sheffield more than makes up for the 25 or so extra minutes of journey time.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by ECCOnoob

[Chez2]

18 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Im not overly convinced by that.

 

Its certainly not better if your dont live within a short distance from either station.       Yes, the line itself has shorter journey times from yorkshire down to the capital but factor in communting and/or additional waiting time getting to and interchanging and any time saving is completely lost.

 

Secondly, from my own experiences of the East Coast Mainline - it always seems to be the one with problems.   Its wholly oversubscribed because every TOC seems to want to fight to run a service on it, its clearly much busier with passengers which impacts the service levels, overcrowding and stations - plus there are frequent delays due to technical faults, power failures, signaling or otherwise.

 

The MML may not (yet) have the same prestige or the shiny new trains, but from my own experience it is rarely struck by long delays (certainly noticably lesser than ECML), the trains, whilst older are still half decent and the convenience of a direct service from Sheffield more than makes up for the 25 or so extra minutes of journey time.

 

 

Where you live doesn't affect the service,  just your convenience. We live on the edge of Rotherham and Sheffield and find we can get to Doncaster or Retford station just as easy if not easier than Sheffield  due to traffic.  Once you get to Sheffield you can't park close by as easy as you can at Doncaster or Retford. The train journey is quicker too. 

 

My question was about the train service from Doncaster and Retford not a persons proximity to any of the stations. My husband has used these stations a lot for trips to London (and Scotland from Doncaster). He used to have to go at least monthly if not more frequently.  

[Andy C]

Looking at the maps that have been published for proposed HS2 services, trains from Scotland, North East England and Leeds that currently use the East Coast Main Line via Doncaster to Kings Cross will instead use the HS2 line from Yorkshire south. Likewise Cross Country trains will use HS2 between Yorkshire and Birmingham.

 

Obviously those trains will no longer call at Doncaster or Retford, however nothing has been announced as to how the capacity freed up will be used. It is likely more commuter trains will run south of Peterborough, however it could also be used  to run more services from places like Lincoln, Grimsby and Hull through to London, some of which could serve Doncaster and Retford.  I would also imagine regular trains will still run from Doncaster but perhaps serving more intermediate stops as the fast trains will be on HS2 instead.

 

Originally the proposed HS2 station at Meadowhall Interchange was to serve all South Yorkshire as it is served by trains from Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham and is also easy to reach via the M1/M18. That isn't to be though unfortunately. There is talk instead of building a high speed station in the Dearne Valley somewere between Doncaster and Wakefield though.

[Ms Macbeth]

1 hour ago, Andy C said:

Originally the proposed HS2 station at Meadowhall Interchange was to serve all South Yorkshire as it is served by trains from Barnsley, Doncaster and Rotherham and is also easy to reach via the M1/M18. That isn't to be though unfortunately. There is talk instead of building a high speed station in the Dearne Valley somewere between Doncaster and Wakefield though.

Meadowhall was such a sensible idea.   No wonder the rest of South Yorkshire are reluctant to be part of the Sheffield City Region when Sheffield can act so selfishly to insist on Midland Station.  

[Blue Day]

1 hour ago, Ms Macbeth said:

Meadowhall was such a sensible idea.   No wonder the rest of South Yorkshire are reluctant to be part of the Sheffield City Region when Sheffield can act so selfishly to insist on Midland Station.  

Absolutely. It would serve a far larger area of South Yorkshire with excellent links to other rail, road and tram. I really don’t understand Sheff Councils thinking on insisting it comes (at a snails pace) to midland station instead.