ECCOnoob Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 I think I might wait a while before I start wetting my knickers with excitement. This talk about "building it over the Pennines" as if it's as easy as chucking a few rails down...... Good grief they couldn't even build so much as a dual carriageway between two major cities without a chain of massive failures, protests groups, controversy and massive expenditure. Unless they are going to somehow conveniently squeeze it along the middle of the M62 I'll be very surprised if this plan comes off in full. Even more so now that the world is changed and that demand for business travel is likely going to be in decline. Much as I hate to admit it, because I was one of the few people that wanted this thing, I suspect it's going to be an uphill battle for any of it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Well I wasn't far off. On 20/01/2020 at 14:38, tinfoilhat said: It's about capacity, not speed. But, frankly that's all a bit irrelevant as I reckon the who thing will go no further than birmingham. Its certainly not going to Leeds. That green line proposal will keep folk in Leeds happy a little longer then quietly dropped. It will do Manchester, nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Bynnol Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 There have been many, many proposals and variations. At the moment the building of the HS2 line to Birmingham has started and the detail contractual work from near Birmingham to the WCML and and Manchester is well in advance. The eastern arm is way behind in planning and the current plan is not at a stage where changes cannot be made. This re-hash is all about Manchester and is from Manchester and sold as a benefit to Manchester. It is a crayon exercise by architects hoping to get money and backing from Burnham to throw at Boris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1978 Posted June 30, 2020 Share Posted June 30, 2020 Much as I'd love HS2 to come to Sheffield, the logic of taking it to Manchester, then through Bradford and Leeds for York and the North East makes a lot of sense, not least because they already want a fast line across/through the Pennines on that route anyway. Sheffield lost out in the first wave of railway building and ended with a spur from Rotherham to the Wicker in 1840, having to wait until 1870 for the current tracks from Chesterfield to Midland. We're in dangerof losing out again. However, we may be better off pushing a lot harder for MML electrification as it should be possible to get that completed a lot more quickly. Done in conjuction with electification for Cross-Country routes from York through Sheffield and Derby to Birmingham gives other options, possibly electrified to Bristol. Unfortunately getting out of Sheffield to the north and east is a major challenge due to already congested tracks. Given the position of roads, rivers, the canal, buildings, viaducts and cuttings it won't be easy or cheap to resolve that. Only someone from the North West would suggest the best way from Sheffield to York is via both Doncaster and Leeds, rather than developing the middle and quicker way that exists via Moorthorpe, avoiding them both and still used as a diversion. However we still need good electrified connections to both Doncaster and Leeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonk Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 (edited) On 15/02/2020 at 10:01, Baron99 said: Mine & many others' objections to HS2, HS2a & HS2b have been on the grounds of cost against the perceived reduction in travel times, ........... The thing I was told about HS2 is the biggest error is in the name...It was called High Speed because it sounds flash but actually the rationale has little to do with speed its more to do with capacity.... The current infrastructure doesnt allow a significant increase in capacity for either freight or passengers. If (for environmental reasons) we want more lorries off the road then we are going to have to build more rail capacity and it makes sense to do the new one at high speed for passengers and use the freed up capacity for more freight... I was actually aginst HS2 on the basis of env damage but when put in this light it seems that it might well have loinger term env benefits , the UKs dependency on road freight is ridiculous and highly inefficient. Edited July 9, 2020 by tonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Bynnol Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Moving the bulk of high speed traffic between London and Birmingham/Crewe/Manchester will release an even bigger amount of capacity on the conventional lines. This could be used for more local passenger services and freight. Fast and slow traffic don't mix well in any system removing the fast traffic increases the speed and capacity of both as each system operates more efficiently. The previous attempt to increase the speed and capacity of the West Coast Main Line was a failure in every measurable way and resulted in the acceptance that Victorian railways cannot be upgraded and new lines had to be built- a bit like the building a new motorway (M1) compared to the mess that is the A1(M) which has taken 50 years and is still sub standard and incomplete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamie risner Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 On 30/06/2020 at 12:26, alchresearch said: More details and map here. That first link is behind a paywall. https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/news/alternative-hs2-piccadilly-hub-could-save-billions/#article-images-2 This would be a total disaster for Sheffield! I thought for a second it was a proposal from the project team - but it's not, it's just a suggestion by an unrelated architecture firm throwing ideas in the air.... Phew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzyjj Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 12 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said: The previous attempt to increase the speed and capacity of the West Coast Main Line was a failure in every measurable way and resulted in the acceptance that Victorian railways cannot be upgraded and new lines had to be built- a bit like the building a new motorway (M1) compared to the mess that is the A1(M) which has taken 50 years and is still sub standard and incomplete. Upgrading/improving roads [other than a better surface] is a complete waste of time. Roads always fill to capacity, so a very expensive and pointless task as you end up with same congestion. https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_the_m Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I've never understood the hostility in principle to HS2. There hasn't been a major intercity route built in the UK for 100 years or more, and it seems to me that we're well overdue for another one. Of course I see that there should be lots of debate about the detail - routes and stuff - but that's different. On the other hand I'm bemused by the cost and cost overruns - we built HS1 not that long ago, so should have a reasonable handle on how much these things cost in reality. There seems to be something deeply wrong with how these things are budgeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 16 hours ago, tonk said: The thing I was told about HS2 is the biggest error is in the name...It was called High Speed because it sounds flash but actually the rationale has little to do with speed its more to do with capacity.... The current infrastructure doesnt allow a significant increase in capacity for either freight or passengers. If (for environmental reasons) we want more lorries off the road then we are going to have to build more rail capacity and it makes sense to do the new one at high speed for passengers and use the freed up capacity for more freight... I was actually aginst HS2 on the basis of env damage but when put in this light it seems that it might well have loinger term env benefits , the UKs dependency on road freight is ridiculous and highly inefficient. If you look at alot of freight on the roads, I'm not sure how much can be moved onto the railways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now