When is enough, enough?

[Zamo]

Is it your contention that this alleged disproportionality is a product of the current geopoltical situation, or something inherent within Islam itself?

 

Islam represses cultures where it is dominant because it is unyielding. There have been no revisions to bring it into the modern era and it retains all its' fire and brimstone, death to non-believers crap. It hasn't changed since men made it all up 1,400 and the lack of any god-like foresight and vision is really starting to show... although the indoctrinated obviously struggle to see it. Like all religions, it is man-made drivel but, unlike most religions, it is dangerous and destructive drivel.

 

What geopolitical situation do you think is to blame for British Muslims embracing extremism? And, if this situation almost exclusively influences Muslims in Britain then isn't that down to the the culture/religion they have been raised within?

[GhostRiders]

It looks to me that it is you saying things for the sake of it, calling me pedantic simply because you are unable to counter my point is saying something for the sake of it.

 

 

And nothing you have said counters that opinion, you have a different opinion which you also can't prove.

 

 

 

This is not a counter argument to my opinion, it's just a demonstration that you are unable to present one, you have an opinion that you can't support so you just keep saying that I am wrong[/Quote]

 

I don't NEED to counter an argument that doesn't address the issue we're talking about. Simply saying people are religious because they're scared doesn't make it so. When you provide actual evidence of this then I will counter it. You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

 

 

 

 

There you go again, no evidence or argument to support you own stance. just a demonstration of your intolerance of opinions that differ from your own

 

Throughout our conversation I have explained why you are incorrect, and why expert testimony is important in these things, you're entire counter argument has been 'it's all opinion and I disagree with that'

 

When you make a sweeping claim about religion and fail to provide evidence for that claim other than saying it's opinion, especially when I show that opinion to be incorrect based on expert opinion and you simply wave it away with the statement 'it is still opinion so I don't accept it' nothing I do will satisfy you.

 

You're refusing to accept evidence and then claiming I've not given you any, that IS NOT me not giving you evidence, that is trolling.

 

Provide me with actual evidence that ALL religious people are only religious because of fear (and bear in mind actual evidence doesn't mean saying that they should fear God, that's PART of Theistic religion, not a reason FOR being religious)

 

Provide me with a evidence why some eastern religions (I will accept Buddhism although there are others) would be religious through fear when it makes absolutely no sense given the nature of their philosophical construct and I will counter your arguments.

 

Simply saying 'it's all opinion and each is as valid as the other' is nonsense when one is using actual contextual evidence and the other is using soundbites.

 

If you're opinion is that it's all 'just opinion' regardless of where the evidence comes from merely reply with that one statement and we'll call it a day. If you're going to merely continue trolling though I'm going to leave you to it, as I said in my last post if you're simply going to ignore evidence from experts and consider it 'just opinion' we might as well be arguing that the colour green is blue.

[Zamo]

Can you quantify 'a handful'? Seems a little suspicious you've been so accurate with your figures then merely state 'a handful' for white fighters.

 

Also how many have those that have gone are children who have been taken by their parents and will not count as people who have independently chosen to go?

 

I obviously cannot give you a definitive number on the number of white converts going off to fight for ISIS any more than you can. That said, there isn't a single honest person that would refuse to acknowledge that the number is tiny compared to those from the Muslim community. You are trying to pretend there isn't a specific and disproportionate problem with extremism within Islamic culture. You may as well argue that water isn't wet because you aren't going to convince anyone... you are delusional if you actually believe it yourself. Where is your Christian honesty... I don't think Jesus is going to be impressed.

 

---------- Post added 07-02-2016 at 09:23 ----------

 

Do some of you Islam bashers not realise that the way you are constantly bashing Islam day in day out may actually be helping the extremists recruit more people to their cause?

The extremists on some videos say that "the kaffir will never accept you so why bother trying" and here you are openly saying you don't like Islam/Muslims.

Well done, keep it up..

 

So we have to put up with all the extremism coming from within Muslim communities or you will get even worse? I realise that Muslims think we have gone soft in the West but we aren't that soft and if things get worse then that will become apparent sooner rather than later.

 

Muslims living in the West need to stop sulking and get on with the business of reforming practices and teachings in order to stop cultivating extremism. You get bad press because you deserve bad press... sort it out.

[sutty27]

I don't NEED to counter an argument that doesn't address the issue we're talking about. Simply saying people are religious because they're scared doesn't make it so. When you provide actual evidence of this then I will counter it. You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

 

Simply saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong, if you provide evidence that counters my opinion I will look at it and might change my stance.

 

 

 

Throughout our conversation I have explained why you are incorrect, and why expert testimony is important in these things, you're entire counter argument has been 'it's all opinion and I disagree with that'

The problem with experts is that they don't always agree, some agree with you and some agree with me.

 

 

When you make a sweeping claim about religion and fail to provide evidence for that claim other than saying it's opinion, especially when I show that opinion to be incorrect based on expert opinion and you simply wave it away with the statement 'it is still opinion so I don't accept it' nothing I do will satisfy you.

I didn't make a sweeping statement and I did provide evidence to support my stance, you just don't accept the evidence which is your prerogative.

 

 

You're refusing to accept evidence and then claiming I've not given you any, that IS NOT me not giving you evidence, that is trolling.

I accept the evidence which supports my stance, you don't and then claim I haven't provided any.

 

Provide me with actual evidence that ALL religious people are only religious because of fear (and bear in mind actual evidence doesn't mean saying that they should fear God, that's PART of Theistic religion, not a reason FOR being religious)

I didn't say that all religious people are only religious because of fear, some use fear to control others.

 

 

Provide me with a evidence why some eastern religions (I will accept Buddhism although there are others) would be religious through fear when it makes absolutely no sense given the nature of their philosophical construct and I will counter your arguments.

 

Please feel free to explain why you think they follow their belief system.

 

 

Simply saying 'it's all opinion and each is as valid as the other' is nonsense when one is using actual contextual evidence and the other is using soundbites.

My opinion is based on evidence, I don't actuality know what your opinion is other than you think I am wrong.

 

If you're opinion is that it's all 'just opinion' regardless of where the evidence comes from merely reply with that one statement and we'll call it a day. If you're going to merely continue trolling though I'm going to leave you to it, as I said in my last post if you're simply going to ignore evidence from experts and consider it 'just opinion' we might as well be arguing that the colour green is blue.

 

My opinions is based on my life experiences, the people I know the studying I have done, it wouldn't be possible to pass it all onto you, and even if I could there is no guarantee that you would come to the same opinion. I accept that you think I am wrong, and I am happy to debate the subject with you, but simply saying that I am wrong isn't going to change my stance.

[GhostRiders]

I obviously cannot give you a definitive number on the number of white converts going off to fight for ISIS any more than you can. That said, there isn't a single honest person that would refuse to acknowledge that the number is tiny compared to those from the Muslim community. You are trying to pretend there isn't a specific and disproportionate problem with extremism within Islamic culture. You may as well argue that water isn't wet because you aren't going to convince anyone... you are delusional if you actually believe it yourself. Where is your Christian honesty... I don't think Jesus is going to be impressed

 

I'm not going to acknowledge anything because of opinion, especially the opinion of someone who is already clearly prejudiced about a subject. You made a statement and now say that you can't provide evidence of that statement, which is entirely relevant considering the point we're trying to achieve.

 

Jesus can think what he wants, I'm an atheist, I don't particularly care.

[JFKvsNixon]

I don't NEED to counter an argument that doesn't address the issue we're talking about. Simply saying people are religious because they're scared doesn't make it so. When you provide actual evidence of this then I will counter it. You made the claim, you provide the evidence.

 

Throughout our conversation I have explained why you are incorrect, and why expert testimony is important in these things, you're entire counter argument has been 'it's all opinion and I disagree with that'

 

When you make a sweeping claim about religion and fail to provide evidence for that claim other than saying it's opinion, especially when I show that opinion to be incorrect based on expert opinion and you simply wave it away with the statement 'it is still opinion so I don't accept it' nothing I do will satisfy you.

 

You're refusing to accept evidence and then claiming I've not given you any, that IS NOT me not giving you evidence, that is trolling.

 

Provide me with actual evidence that ALL religious people are only religious because of fear (and bear in mind actual evidence doesn't mean saying that they should fear God, that's PART of Theistic religion, not a reason FOR being religious)

 

Provide me with a evidence why some eastern religions (I will accept Buddhism although there are others) would be religious through fear when it makes absolutely no sense given the nature of their philosophical construct and I will counter your arguments.

 

Simply saying 'it's all opinion and each is as valid as the other' is nonsense when one is using actual contextual evidence and the other is using soundbites.

 

If you're opinion is that it's all 'just opinion' regardless of where the evidence comes from merely reply with that one statement and we'll call it a day. If you're going to merely continue trolling though I'm going to leave you to it, as I said in my last post if you're simply going to ignore evidence from experts and consider it 'just opinion' we might as well be arguing that the colour green is blue.

 

We do seem to becoming a society that's starting to believe that all opinions are as equally valid. Maybe it's the way our media works, where during popular discussion shows the same if not more time is given to the general public to discuss an issue as is given to an expert in that field.

[sutty27]

I'm not going to acknowledge anything because of opinion, especially the opinion of someone who is already clearly prejudiced about a subject. You made a statement and now say that you can't provide evidence of that statement, which is entirely relevant considering the point we're trying to achieve.

 

Jesus can think what he wants, I'm an atheist, I don't particularly care.

 

Did you ask your religious friends about what will happen to you after your death and do they agree that you deserve to be punished for not believing.

 

---------- Post added 07-02-2016 at 09:41 ----------

 

We do seem to becoming a society that's starting to believe that all opinions are as equally valid. Maybe it's the way our media works, where during popular discussion shows the same if not more time is given to the general public to discuss an issue as is given to an expert in that field.

 

The problem with experts is that they don't always agree with each other and even when they do they are sometimes proven wrong at some point in the future.

[JFKvsNixon]

The problem with experts is that they don't always agree with each other.........

 

What you need to do is understand why and how the experts hold their position, then you may be able to judge whether their position has validity. Unfortunately this often takes longer than a 10 minute google to achieve.

 

.........even when they do they are sometimes proven wrong at some point in the future.

 

You believe that to be a problem? Surely as more evidence comes to light opinions should change!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zamo]

I'm not going to acknowledge anything because of opinion, especially the opinion of someone who is already clearly prejudiced about a subject. You made a statement and now say that you can't provide evidence of that statement, which is entirely relevant considering the point we're trying to achieve.

 

Jesus can think what he wants, I'm an atheist, I don't particularly care.

 

Not being able to put a precise figure of something doesn't mean you can't make factual statements. The number of British citizens going off to fight for ISIS that come from a non-Muslim background is minute compared to those from a Muslim background. Fact. In all cases it is exposure to Islam that has steered them down that path and the reasons more from a Muslim background go down that path is because they are subject to more exposure.

 

You look for excuses to avoid acknowledging a truth that you find uncomfortable but you are only deluding yourself and creating a reputation as a dishonest person.

[GhostRiders]

Simply saying I am wrong doesn't make me wrong, if you provide evidence that counters my opinion I will look at it and might change my stance[/Quote]

 

I don't need to provide evidence, you made a statement, the onus is on you to quantify it, when you have done so the onus turns to me to provide counter evidence. That's how debate works.

 

The problem with experts is that they don't always agree, some agree with you and some agree with Me[/Quote]

 

Then provide evidence from those who agree with you, and I will provide counter evidence, if possible we can examine the credentials of the experts, that's how debate works, see where we're going with this?

 

I didn't make a sweeping statement and I did provide evidence to support my stance, you just don't accept the evidence which is your prerogative[/Quote]

 

Your 'evidence' consisted of you merely saying stuff, no links, no anything, that is NOT evidence, that's merely someone saying stuff.

 

I accept the evidence which supports my stance, you don't and then claim I haven't provided Any[/Quote]

 

You may well accept evidence which supports your stance, critically though you haven't provided any, you've merely made statements, that's why I'm claiming that you haven't provided any.

 

I didn't say that all religious people are only religious because of fear, some use fear to control others[/Quote]

 

You did say people are religious because of fear, otherwise I wouldn't have picked you up on it. Some religious people do use fear to control others, as do some non religious people. That's part of the human condition.

 

 

Please feel free to explain why you think they follow their belief system[/Quote]

 

Really? Still? When you have provided evidence why people are religious because of fear (which your now apparently backtracking on) I will provide the counter evidence. If you're not going to provide that evidence and you still want to know go talk to some Buddhists and ask them.

 

My opinion is based on evidence, I don't actuality know what your opinion is other than you think I am wrong[/Quote]

 

So you keep saying but I've yet to see any of this evidence.

 

My opinions is based on my life experiences, the people I know the studying I have done, it wouldn't be possible to pass it all onto you, and even if I could there is no guarantee that you would come to the same opinion. I accept that you think I am wrong, and I am happy to debate the subject with you, but simply saying that I am wrong isn't going to change my stance.

 

The thing is that I can't do anything BUT say your wrong until you provide me with something to refute.

 

If, for example you can provide me with, let's say statements from people (there are plenty of online sources) who have converted to religion 'x' and given the reason that they converted due to fear (especially if you did it for all the major religions) then that would be a reasonable argument and the onus would be on me to find alternative, or counter testimonials.

 

You see what I mean? We can argue blue is green all day but without quantification it's just saying stuff.

 

---------- Post added 07-02-2016 at 10:08 ----------

 

Not being able to put a precise figure of something doesn't mean you can't make factual statements. The number of British citizens going off to fight for ISIS that come from a non-Muslim background is minute compared to those from a Muslim background. Fact. In all cases it is exposure to Islam that has steered them down that path and the reasons more from a Muslim background go down that path is because they are subject to more exposure.

 

You look for excuses to avoid acknowledging a truth that you find uncomfortable but you are only deluding yourself and creating a reputation as a dishonest person.

 

I'm not looking for any excuse, you've stated the number is small, FACT, but not actually provided any evidence whatsoever to quantify that number being small.

 

---------- Post added 07-02-2016 at 10:15 ----------

 

Did you ask your religious friends about what will happen to you after your death and do they agree that you deserve to be punished for not believing.[/Quote]

 

I've got lots of religious friends from lots of religious backgrounds, you're barking entirely up the wrong tree with this line of questioning. I've already put this to you, the answer is completely irrelevant to our discussion (especially considering that you've now changed your tack)

 

What relevance has that got to your (now adjusted) claim that some religious people use religion to control others (which, by the way, I don't dispute).