When is enough, enough?

[Zamo]

I think we can see there are bad people claiming to be from all religions. It doesn't make Islam any more or less worse.

 

The fact that Islamic culture doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to producing bad people doesn't change the fact that it has a grossly disproportionate problem with it.

 

Please explain how it doesn't have a disproportionate problem when more Muslim youths from this country are going to fight for evil extremist groups than join the armed services of their adopted country? They aren't freaks of nature but freaks of nurture. Such disastrous and treacherous nurturing outcomes are unacceptable. Muslims in the West need to deal with the problem or face rejection.

[sutty27]

You've two choices, out of context or in context, both party's will claim to be right. All I will say s good luck finding a middle eastern scholar (to avoid confusion, someone who studies the middle east - not someone from there) who thinks the Quran commands people to kill innocent unbelievers.

 

In every - EVERY case I've seen, from either 'side' of the debate that uses this justification the verses have, on every single occasion been taken either historically or philosophically out of context.

 

That in itself is a bit irrelevant though because there are still nutters running around to justify it killing people. At the end of the day it's up to each individual to check the facts for themselves. It's not easy and it's not straightforward and that's why it is so prone to misinterpretation.

 

---------- Post added 06-02-2016 at 12:31 ----------

 

 

SOME Christians believe this, not all (and those that do would be incorrect anyway as Jesus himself said that he didn't come to change the law but to fulfil it (which he didn't do, but that's a different story))

 

So its just a matter of personal opinion on what context they should be taken. Why do you think they are taken out of context?

[GhostRiders]

The fact that Islamic culture doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to producing bad people doesn't change the fact that it has a grossly disproportionate problem with it.

 

Please explain how it doesn't have a disproportionate problem when more Muslim youths from this country are going to fight for evil extremist groups than join the armed services of their adopted country? They aren't freaks of nature but freaks of nurture. Such disastrous and treacherous nurturing outcomes are unacceptable. Muslims in the West need to deal with the problem or face rejection.

 

You're talking two separate issues.

 

I'm not a sociologist so this is purely opinion rather than any professional insight but the Muslim youths going to fight for the extremists tend to be rebelling, it seems, against there own culture as well. Many of the youth who do go are implored by their families to return and when the circumstances are investigated surrounding their going it seems that their parents didn't know they were being radicalised.

 

I also think Muslims in the west are trying to deal with it, although I believe they are largely fighting a losing battle. It's a very similar scenario to parents in the 60's trying to keep control of their rebelling youth - only this time it's literally life and death. These hate preachers are subtle, and they're appealing to the Islamic youth, they're offering freedom and adventure and their parents just can't compete.

 

In my opinion, which may be completely incorrect what the culture should be doing, which it's not, is turning around and saying 'look, we have a problem, we can't handle it on our own and we need help'.

[Zamo]

You're talking two separate issues.

 

I'm not a sociologist so this is purely opinion rather than any professional insight but the Muslim youths going to fight for the extremists tend to be rebelling, it seems, against there own culture as well. Many of the youth who do go are implored by their families to return and when the circumstances are investigated surrounding their going it seems that their parents didn't know they were being radicalised.

 

I also think Muslims in the west are trying to deal with it, although I believe they are largely fighting a losing battle. It's a very similar scenario to parents in the 60's trying to keep control of their rebelling youth - only this time it's literally life and death. These hate preachers are subtle, and they're appealing to the Islamic youth, they're offering freedom and adventure and their parents just can't compete.

 

In my opinion, which may be completely incorrect what the culture should be doing, which it's not, is turning around and saying 'look, we have a problem, we can't handle it on our own and we need help'.

 

How is it two separate issues? If the Muslim youth who go off to fight for ISIS had been removed from their parents at birth and given to a non-Muslim family then it is fairly safe to assume it is highly unlikely any would have grown up to be a murderous extremist. There is no two ways about it... they are the product of Islamic culture.

 

If Islam was a school it would be labelled as 'failing' and closed down. I'm sick of the misplaced 'respect' given to it.

[GhostRiders]

So its just a matter of personal opinion on what context they should be taken. Why do you think they are taken out of context?

 

If you consider the opinion of a scholar of middle eastern studies who has looked into it historically, linguistically and taken into account other forms of evidence (like archaeology) and put those things together to form a contextual opinion using the evidence to be the same as the opinion of someone who has read a daily mail headline or a young Muslim disillusioned with the way he perceives the West has treated Muslims based on the preaching of a preacher who has a bee in his bonnet then you can say it's a matter of personal opinion.

 

At the end of the day that's up to each individual to decide for themselves, there really is no 'right' or 'wrong' in these things, it all depends how much effort and critical thinking you're willing to employ.

 

---------- Post added 06-02-2016 at 13:12 ----------

 

How is it two separate issues? If the Muslim youth who go off to fight for ISIS had been removed from their parents at birth and given to a non-Muslim family then it is fairly safe to assume it is highly unlikely any would have grown up to be a murderous extremist. There is no two ways about it... they are the product of Islamic culture.

 

If Islam was a school it would be labelled as 'failing' and closed down. I'm sick of the misplaced 'respect' given to it.

 

that's a ridiculous argument - that's like saying if a rapist were taken from his parents at birth he wouldn't rape and his actions and choice were all down to his upbringing.

 

If the human race were a school it would be classed as failing if we look at the evidence based on the amount of damage we do to the planet, you're arguments are ludicrous.

[sutty27]

If you consider the opinion of a scholar of middle eastern studies who has looked into it historically, linguistically and taken into account other forms of evidence (like archaeology) and put those things together to form a contextual opinion using the evidence to be the same as the opinion of someone who has read a daily mail headline or a young Muslim disillusioned with the way he perceives the West has treated Muslims based on the preaching of a preacher who has a bee in his bonnet then you can say it's a matter of personal opinion.

 

At the end of the day that's up to each individual to decide for themselves, there really is no 'right' or 'wrong' in these things, it all depends how much effort and critical thinking you're willing to employ.

 

---------- Post added 06-02-2016 at 13:12 ----------

 

 

that's a ridiculous argument - that's like saying if a rapist were taken from his parents at birth he wouldn't rape and his actions and choice were all down to his upbringing.

 

If the human race were a school it would be classed as failing if we look at the evidence based on the amount of damage we do to the planet, you're arguments are ludicrous.

 

I consider his opinion no more valid than the opinion of other Islamic scholars with the opposite opinion.

I also use my own judgement and have concluded based on what I have seen and read that Isis are very Islamic and are only following the same path taken by Muhammad and that many Muslims are simply the victims of Islam.

[GhostRiders]

I consider his opinion no more valid than the opinion of other Islamic scholars with the opposite opinion.

I also use my own judgement and have concluded based on what I have seen and read that Isis are very Islamic and are only following the same path taken by Muhammad and that many Muslims are simply the victims of Islam.

 

That's entirely your prerogative to do so.

[herbalharry]

The fact that Islamic culture doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to producing bad people doesn't change the fact that it has a grossly disproportionate problem with it.

 

Please explain how it doesn't have a disproportionate problem when more Muslim youths from this country are going to fight for evil extremist groups than join the armed services of their adopted country? They aren't freaks of nature but freaks of nurture. Such disastrous and treacherous nurturing outcomes are unacceptable. Muslims in the West need to deal with the problem or face rejection.

 

Two separate issues. Muslims are dealing with it.

[unbeliever]

Two separate issues. Muslims are dealing with it.

 

The link between these two issues cannot be willed away by declaration.

[herbalharry]

The fact that Islamic culture doesn't have exclusivity when it comes to producing bad people doesn't change the fact that it has a grossly disproportionate problem with it

 

Disproportionate problem to what?

 

---------- Post added 06-02-2016 at 14:13 ----------

 

The link between these two issues cannot be willed away by declaration.

 

The fact there are muslims who are also evil or radicalised? I agree with that statement.