Ballance of power, workers vs employers

[ChrisT70]

I disagree. In my line of work it would not be possible to take on a younger person and pay this wage plus pay for day release study and give them one day off per week. It would be better to pay a nature, qualified and experienced person (over thirty) more money because they would be capable of earning the money to cover their wages. Younger people will suffer. I take it you have never run your own business with the comments you are making.

 

 

As it happens I have and did ok thanks. My comments were however about minimum living wage not apprentices. I'd agree it's difficult paying wages and giving someone time off or day release. Apprentices are a big commitment, I've been one once.

However I stand by the minimum living wage statement, it's payable and won't shut hundreds of businesses or lose thousands of jobs, just like the minimum wage didn't.

You'll notice quite a few big firms have recently been named and shamed for not paying minimum wage as well as a few stupid small business owners too thick to think the law is the law.

[Cyclone]

Anna b, people are much better off than they used to be back in the 60s, 70s and 80s. People expect so much more now. That goes for house prices and cost of living in comparison to wages of the day.

 

If you think it's so easy why don't you set up your own business? I know some employers aren't as good as others and take advantage but people have to earn their money, they need to be cost effective. I am speaking from experience.

 

People are better off in many ways, but house prices is not one of them.

 

The average house price is now a greater multiple of average income than it was through any of the decades you listed.

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 09:14 ----------

 

As HSBC are demonstrating at the moment, business is international. They can simply move their registered office and HQ to a friendlier country and carry on with business as usual. In the meantime the United Korbyn economy will be destroyed as business takes their profit and taxes somewhere else.

 

I feel most sorry for the regular people who work in non essential industry because they will be out of work under El Jerementé. All's not lost though because the Rolls Royce factory worker could turn their hand to tractor production, and Burberry could do a natty line in Workers Plaid. The luxury yacht makers could turn their hand to submarines when they don't have to worry about all that radioactive stuff. Print workers will be safest though because we'll need lots of high denomination notes printing to use in the rebranded Ninety Nine Pound shops.

 

True for some business, not for others.

 

Starbucks for example (who currently offshore most of their income to avoid tax) can't sell coffee to people in the UK without being in the UK.

They don't have their headquarters here anyway, so if we pass laws to make them pay more tax, they have a choice. Pay it, or stop selling coffee.

If they stop selling coffee, someone else will start, and they'll have to pay the tax.

[Chez2]

As it happens I have and did ok thanks. My comments were however about minimum living wage not apprentices. I'd agree it's difficult paying wages and giving someone time off or day release. Apprentices are a big commitment, I've been one once.

However I stand by the minimum living wage statement, it's payable and won't shut hundreds of businesses or lose thousands of jobs, just like the minimum wage didn't.

You'll notice quite a few big firms have recently been named and shamed for not paying minimum wage as well as a few stupid small business owners too thick to think the law is the law.

 

Then why aren't you still running your own business if its so easy?

 

I wasn't talking about apprentices if you read my post. I was talking about people under the age of thirty who are still working towards their HNC or degree. They also need a good few years experience under their belt to be able to earn their wage in an SME.

 

Anna b, Cyclone and Co, did you buy your first house in the early 80s? I guess not from your comments. You may be correct when talking about house prices in London but not in Yorkshire or North Notts.

 

Back in 1983 my house in Rotherham was £22,000. It was a very tiny two bed semi with a short galley kitchen and open plan lounge/hall, no space for a table in the lounge. My top line salary was £3,000 per year. My basic food bill was £25 per week. There were no luxury pre made food and no alcohol in that. We could afford one bottle of wine per week or a cheap bar meal at the local pub. We had no tumble dryer, no freezer, no video, a black and white portable TV, etc, etc. Supermarkets closed at 5pm, no sunday trading. Most of our furniture was second hand. I don't see most people living in these conditions now when both people are working long hours in good jobs.

 

Most people have it easy now compared to thirty plus years ago. I am old enough to have lived through the strikes in the 70s so I am talking from experience.

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 09:36 ----------

 

Cyclone, can you list your house prices and salaries for me please during those decades? I have listed my costings from the early 80s.

[Cyclone]

The house you bought may not have been typical, and your income probably wasn't the national average.

If we're talking about the country, and averages, then the figures are all available, one anecdote doesn't refute them.

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 09:41 ----------

 

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/graphs-average-house-price-to-earnings-ratio.php

 

That took some finding.

[Chez2]

The house you bought may not have been typical, and your income probably wasn't the national average.

If we're talking about the country, and averages, then the figures are all available, one anecdote doesn't refute them.

 

You are right cyclone, not in the way you think though. Our house was in a cheaper area, all we could afford. My husband had a company car and we had to live somewhere where the wheels would still be on when we got up in the morning. The house wasn't in a particularly convenient area for busses etc so it was much cheaper than a lot of areas. The house was about four times our joint salary so we had to save up a good deposit, you did back then too as there had been a lot of people defaulting on credit cards and mortgages due to overspending and then the miners strike.

 

Edit - just looked at your graph. If you study it yourself you will see I'm not referring to prices in the crash. I have bought four houses so I know all about buying and selling in those peaks and troughs. Two houses were in the 80s, one in 1992 and the fourth in 2000.

 

My salary was reasonable too for a person of my age, especially for a young woman. I was the same age as people who are looking to buy their first home. I am comparing like with like. Minimum wage now has much more buying power than it did back then. Clothes and food were much more expensive compared to basic wages twenty to thirty years ago than they are now.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Chez2

[truman]

People are better off in many ways, but house prices is not one of them.

 

The average house price is now a greater multiple of average income than it was through any of the decades you listed

 

Genuine question..how does the average mortgage payment ratio against average salary compare to other times in the past?

[Chez2]

If you study the graph you will see I'm not referring to prices in any of those crashes. I bought two houses in the 80s, one in 1992 and one in 2000. It seems from your comments Cyclone that you don't have first hand experience of owning you won home and buying food and clothing in the time frame I'm talking about.

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 09:57 ----------

 

Genuine question..how does the average mortgage payment ratio against average salary compare to other times in the past?

 

Its much cheaper at the moment as interest rates are so low. We bought or second house in 1987 thinking we had left enough contingency in our budget. The interest rates made it extremely difficult for us to live as they went up quickly. I can't remember the figures but I can remember it being quite a scary time for us. The same mortgage was much more expensive back then due to interest rates.

 

Edit - the graph cuts off too early and doesn't reflect the last decade never mind 2016!

Edited January 18, 2016 by Chez2

[sgtkate]

Companies will just get shut of staff if this happens. It will be the workers who suffer from a stupid rise of the minimum wage , not employers.

 

What's this 'if this happens' business? It is happening. Even the Tories have realised it's the right thing to do and you can hardly accuse them of being anti-business!

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 10:06 ----------

 

You are right cyclone, not in the way you think though. Our house was in a cheaper area, all we could afford. My husband had a company car and we had to live somewhere where the wheels would still be on when we got up in the morning. The house wasn't in a particularly convenient area for busses etc so it was much cheaper than a lot of areas. The house was about four times our joint salary so we had to save up a good deposit, you did back then too as there had been a lot of people defaulting on credit cards and mortgages due to overspending and then the miners strike.

 

Edit - just looked at your graph. If you study it yourself you will see I'm not referring to prices in the crash. I have bought four houses so I know all about buying and selling in those peaks and troughs. Two houses were in the 80s, one in 1992 and the fourth in 2000.

 

My salary was reasonable too for a person of my age, especially for a young woman. I was the same age as people who are looking to buy their first home. I am comparing like with like. Minimum wage now has much more buying power than it did back then. Clothes and food were much more expensive compared to basic wages twenty to thirty years ago than they are now.

 

I think both you and Cyclone are both right! Houses are now far more expensive relative to wages than they used to be right up to the 2000s. However, other critical costs (food, cars, petrol (now at least!), clothes and so on) are relatively cheaper. Does one offset the other, because that's the key question. Is life relatively more or less expensive than it was, and looking at houses in isolation masks the answer. I don't have the answer by the way! I was trying to google it and struggled.

[Chez2]

What's this 'if this happens' business? It is happening. Even the Tories have realised it's the right thing to do and you can hardly accuse them of being anti-business!

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 10:06 ----------

 

 

I think both you and Cyclone are both right! Houses are now far more expensive relative to wages than they used to be right up to the 2000s. However, other critical costs (food, cars, petrol (now at least!), clothes and so on) are relatively cheaper. Does one offset the other, because that's the key question. Is life relatively more or less expensive than it was, and looking at houses in isolation masks the answer. I don't have the answer by the way! I was trying to google it and struggled.

 

Actually I disagree. I have based this on what used to happen back in the 80s. A lot of people used to look at buying their home in their twenties. Most in their early twenties, a few in their late twenties. A typical starter home was about seven times a salary or three and a half times a joint salary. A large deposit was needed as maximum mortgage was three times joint salary. In addition to this, you had to put down 5-10% deposit or buy an additional insurance policy to top it up if you only put down a 5% deposit.

 

If you do the same calculations with the minimum wage today you will see how I arrive at my comparison figures. Also be mindful that most people don't buy a house as young these days therefore they will be higher up the job rankings by the time they look to buy their first house and not on minimum wage. There will always we exceptions at either end of the scale but I'm talking about your average person in Yorkshire / North Notts as this is Sheffield forum.

[ChrisT70]

Then why aren't you still running your own business if its so easy?

 

I wasn't talking about apprentices if you read my post. I was talking about people under the age of thirty who are still working towards their HNC or degree. They also need a good few years experience under their belt to be able to earn their wage in an SME.

 

Anna b, Cyclone and Co, did you buy your first house in the early 80s? I guess not from your comments. You may be correct when talking about house prices in London but not in Yorkshire or North Notts.

 

Back in 1983 my house in Rotherham was £22,000. It was a very tiny two bed semi with a short galley kitchen and open plan lounge/hall, no space for a table in the lounge. My top line salary was £3,000 per year. My basic food bill was £25 per week. There were no luxury pre made food and no alcohol in that. We could afford one bottle of wine per week or a cheap bar meal at the local pub. We had no tumble dryer, no freezer, no video, a black and white portable TV, etc, etc. Supermarkets closed at 5pm, no sunday trading. Most of our furniture was second hand. I don't see most people living in these conditions now when both people are working long hours in good jobs.

 

Most people have it easy now compared to thirty plus years ago. I am old enough to have lived through the strikes in the 70s so I am talking from experience.

 

---------- Post added 18-01-2016 at 09:36 ----------

 

Cyclone, can you list your house prices and salaries for me please during those decades? I have listed my costings from the early 80s.

 

i sold up and took the cash