National borders are becoming irrelevant, says John McDonnell

[sutty27]

No civilisation has ever advanced anywhere near to this point before.

Trade replaces war. Central planning always involves trade restrictions and encourages conflict.

There's a lot more this world has to offer before we have to look elsewhere.

There are now well over 7 billion of us, but our food supply consistently grows faster than our population.

 

We are back to at great cost to the environment, water depletion, soil mineral depletion, soil erosion, deforestation, man made global warming, we can feed 7 billion people for now but not indefinitely because the resources we are using to grow the food are being used faster than they are replaced.

It's like having a million pounds in your back which grows by 3% every year, you can spend £30,000 every year for ever or you can spend £40,000 a year and hope that a new supply of money will come your way before it's all gone.

[truman]

We are back to at great cost to the environment, water depletion, soil mineral depletion, soil erosion, deforestation, man made global warming, we can feed 7 billion people for now but not indefinitely because the resources we are using to grow the food are being used faster than they are replaced.

It's like having a million pounds in your back which grows by 3% every year, you can spend £30,000 every year for ever or you can spend £40,000 a year and hope that a new supply of money will come your way before it's all gone.

 

Instead of waiting for a new supply of money you could go about producing one yourself..

[sutty27]

Instead of waiting for a new supply of money you could go about producing one yourself..

 

 

We can't produce a new earth, its a finite resource and based on our current knowledge we are consuming its resources faster than they are being replaced.

[truman]

We can't produce a new earth, its a finite resource and based on our current knowledge we are consuming its resources faster than they are being replaced.

 

You can develop new production methods..

[sutty27]

You can develop new production methods..

 

That would just increase the consumption of the worlds resources and we are already using them faster than they are being replenished.

 

We can try to develop new methods of producing food without water but we might fail.

We can try to produce cheap sustainable energy but we might fail.

We might develop new methods of extracting deep ground water, oil and other minerals but that will just use them faster and they will still run out.

We might develop the technology to exploit the resources of other worlds or we might run out of everything before we achieve it.

What we can do right now because we have the knowledge to achieve it is live sustainably, unfortunately that involves reducing the number of people or reducing the amount some people consume.

[unbeliever]

We can't produce a new earth, its a finite resource and based on our current knowledge we are consuming its resources faster than they are being replaced.

 

10000 years ago the only resource was wood and we got food by hunting and gathering.

1000 years ago it was wood and basic farming.

200 years ago we were dependent on whale oil.

Now we have rock oil and nuclear power.

Next is likely to be fusion which is basically a matter of collecting sea water, taking a tiny fraction of it out and putting the rest back. In the mean time, there's enough uranium for thousands of years.

 

---------- Post added 01-02-2016 at 12:53 ----------

 

That would just increase the consumption of the worlds resources and we are already using them faster than they are being replenished.

 

We can try to develop new methods of producing food without water but we might fail.

We can try to produce cheap sustainable energy but we might fail.

We might develop new methods of extracting deep ground water, oil and other minerals but that will just use them faster and they will still run out.

We might develop the technology to exploit the resources of other worlds or we might run out of everything before we achieve it.

What we can do right now because we have the knowledge to achieve it is live sustainably, unfortunately that involves reducing the number of people or reducing the amount some people consume.

 

It's never failed before.

We already have things on the back burner which will work. We'll start using them when either they become cheaper or the existing methods become expensive.

This is what happens. This is how it works. This is what works.

 

Whenever anybody comes along and tries some grand design to save the world, they make an almighty mess. This is how the dark ages happened.

[sutty27]

10000 years ago the only resource was wood and we got food by hunting and gathering.

1000 years ago it was wood and basic farming.

200 years ago we were dependent on whale oil.

Now we have rock oil and nuclear power.

Next is likely to be fusion which is basically a matter of collecting sea water, taking a tiny fraction of it out and putting the rest back. In the mean time, there's enough uranium for thousands of years.

 

So back to living in hope that we develop new technology to solve the problems we are causing, do you the poor majority will be able to afford food grown by using nuclear power to desalinate sea water?

 

---------- Post added 01-02-2016 at 13:03 ----------

 

It's never failed before.

We already have things on the back burner which will work. We'll start using them when either they become cheaper or the existing methods become expensive.

This is what happens. This is how it works. This is what works.

 

Whenever anybody comes along and tries some grand design to save the world, they make an almighty mess. This is how the dark ages happened.

 

Its as failed before, whole civilisations have collapsed because technology couldn't keep pace with their population growth. If we have the ability to do it now why are there starving people in the world without clean water, TV's and fast cars. We simply can't provide everyone on earth with the same level of consumption that we take for granted in the UK, sooner or later they will all want what we have and that isn't possible.

[Eric Arthur]

So back to living in hope that we develop new technology to solve the problems we are causing, do you the poor majority will be able to afford food grown by using nuclear power to desalinate sea water?

 

We've been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years and we didn't even have Steve Jobs. The poor majority seem to get by every day, year in, year out, for millennia. Do you suppose that is going to change sometime soon because I wouldn't bet on it.

 

The increased numbers will still compete for resources though, and that comes back to John McDonnell's idea of eliminating borders which is OK if we don't mind the UK being like central Africa. If we don't want the UK to be like central Africa we'll be needing better borders as the world population increases.

[sutty27]

We've been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years and we didn't even have Steve Jobs. The poor majority seem to get by every day, year in, year out, for millennia. Do you suppose that is going to change sometime soon because I wouldn't bet on it.

 

The increased numbers will still compete for resources though, and that comes back to John McDonnell's idea of eliminating borders which is OK if we don't mind the UK being like central Africa. If we don't want the UK to be like central Africa we'll be needing better borders as the world population increases.

 

No I don't think it will change and that is the reason I agree with your second paragraph. Its clearly deluded for anyone to think we will ever have an equal distribution of resources and the free movement of people globally. Take the migration form Africa and middle east into Europe, for now it is only just being tolerated, if it continues or increases the migrants will find themselves on the wrong end of a gun.

[tzijlstra]

National borders WILL become obsolete, this is not a unique position to hold, one could argue they are already obsolete. The only thing that is keeping them going is North Korea and the 'terror-scare'. It does not mean that nations become obsolete by the way, it means nations need to alter their sovereign rule to accommodate for this. It would prevent stupid discussions like we have now about immigrants and benefits. A nation's population would consist of the people that hold a passport for that nation.