Anti-vaccine attitudes based on that false claim still exist

[MAC33]

I shy away from taking any pills or injections of anything.

 

Taking vitamin pills is not a natural way to acquire your nutrients.

 

Injections of any substance has risks.

 

As I said in another post,good to see someone that thinks for themselves.

 

Not just regurgitates the 'truth' from the ministry of truth,aka the mainstream media.

[ez8004]

Not just regurgitates the 'truth' from the ministry of truth,aka the mainstream media.

 

Peer reviewed papers from established scientific journals is not mainstream media.

 

You are proof that one cannot have a reasoned debate with if you are not sufficiently educated.

[onewheeldave]

 

You are proof that one cannot have a reasoned debate with if you are not sufficiently educated.

 

for someone talking about education your grammar here is abysmal

 

Though it's difficult to make out what you even mean there, it's presumably suggesting that 'an education' is necessary for debate?

 

It's not, if you're talking about a genuine debate focused on finding truth (as opposed to the disingenuous, zero logic rubbish that passes for modern day political 'discussion'), then what's required are-

 

1. good basic logical ability

2. honesty and integrity

3. ability to modify one's communication style to facilitate communication with those with differing communication styles

 

our modern education system fails on all the above, and, clearly churns out people with, if anything, impaired ability. Watch 99% of televised political debate and observe the amount of effort invested in misinformation, deception, trickery, lies and strawmanning.

 

What passes for modern day debate is usually nothing more than a process which has evolved to be nothing more than a total block to finding truth, whilst giving people the illusion that everyone has a 'say', while maintaining whatever systemic status quo is in operation at the time.

Edited February 20, 2016 by onewheeldave

[JFKvsNixon]

I research a lot of stuff to do with health, diet etc.

 

These things are very complex, and, as you will fully realise, getting closer to truth takes a lot of time and energy (especially as there is a great deal of misinformation, distortion and suppression, due to the financial interests of the pharmaceutical & food industries).

 

So I have to prioritise- things like diet, b12 issue and why the NHS is so far removed from being a 'health' service, all affect me greatly, so that's what I spend my time researching.

 

Vaccinations, MMR etc I'm primarily interested in due to things like the NHS trying to coerce parents into getting their child/ren MMR'd, and refusing them the very reasonable alternative of seperate vaccinations.

 

Of course I defend the right of every parent to not have their child vaccinated- in general, I'm pro-choice.

 

But, as to whether vaccines per se are bad or good, I really couldn't say- I've simply not researched it to the extent that would be necessary. TBH, it's a low priority as I know I certainly won't be getting vaccinated, and, having no children, I won't have to face that decision either.

 

I can see there's some extremely suspicious behaviour with the national health services over vaccines, and it’s obvious that MMR and the ‘flu jab’ are likely things to avoid totally.

 

I also find that pseudo-rationalisr/sceptic types are drawn to vaccine support and national health system apologism, bringing in a lot of intellectual-sounding but logically invalid ‘arguments’ to bolster their cause. That’s not just annoying, it’s dangerous, because they’re propping up systems that are causing great harm.

 

The NHS blocking people from acquiring B12 is appaling. It’s crazy that it’s now preventing people from using a substance that they either need, or at least stongly feel they need it, when that substance is proven beyond doubt to be harmless, and, is also very cheap.

 

That’s a clear example, possibly the clearest, of a system that is out-of-control, not fit for purpose, and, extremely dangerous.

 

Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist, have turned these national health systems into monsters. The tragedy is that the majority of the workers in that system, are decent honest people. These systems were created with the good intention of serving humans, now humans are serving the systems.

 

How can we take anything you say seriously when you believe that the NHS has billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist.

 

It also seems that you didn't read the NICE link that you criticised earlier, so you're obviously in no position to criticise the NHS's approach to treating vitamin B12 deficiency when you have no idea what the official approach is and what the rational is behind it. So again how can we take you seriously, when your "knowledge" is gained from quick scan of a few websites?

Edited February 20, 2016 by JFKvsNixon

[onewheeldave]

How can we take anything you say seriously when you believe that the NHS has billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist.

 

Billions? Are you sure I said billions? Can you grab the quote if so? I meant millions.

 

It also seems that you didn't read the NICE link that you criticised earlier, so you're obviously in no position to criticise the NHS's approach to treating vitamin B12 deficiency when you have no idea what the official approach is and what the rational is behind it. So again how can we take you seriously, when your "knowledge" is gained from quick scan of a few websites?

 

I did read it. Bits were OK, as far as they went. It didn't seem to mention the NHS policy of refusing B12 to those who clearly need it, or, give the reason why (given that injectable b12 methylcobalamin is incredibly safe and very cheap).

 

My knowledge on b12 is not from (a?)"quick scan of a few websites". I'm b12 deficient myself, so I've spent lots of time looking for, and finding, information.

[Obelix]

Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist, have turned these national health systems into monsters. The tragedy is that the majority of the workers in that system, are decent honest people. These systems were created with the good intention of serving humans, now humans are serving the systems.

 

Post #250 as I'm sure you could find yourself.

[JFKvsNixon]

Billions? Are you sure I said billions? Can you grab the quote if so? I meant millions.

 

 

 

I did read it. Bits were OK, as far as they went. It didn't seem to mention the NHS policy of refusing B12 to those who clearly need it, or, give the reason why (given that injectable b12 methylcobalamin is incredibly safe and very cheap).

 

My knowledge on b12 is not from (a?)"quick scan of a few websites". I'm b12 deficient myself, so I've spent lots of time looking for, and finding, information.

 

Remember that the NICE guidelines are official NHS policy on the matter.

 

You're right it doesn't say that vitamin B12 should be denied to those that need it. It even states that those who are still having symptoms of deficiency, whilst they are on the three month injection regime, should be referred to a specialist who can try to give them a more individual treatment program.

 

If doctors are not following these guidelines then it's a case incompetence or poor judgement than a case of an NHS wide conspiracy.

[onewheeldave]

Post #250 as I'm sure you could find yourself.

 

I couldn't find it as, the best way, I find, to find stuff, is bang it in speech marks and search for it as a phrase on google.

 

However, JFK neglected to quote me, and, instead, put things into his own words, thus-

 

How can we take anything you say seriously when you believe that the NHS has billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist.

 

so it didn't come up in the search.

 

My actual words are those quoted in your recent post i.e.

 

 

Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist, have turned these national health systems into monsters. The tragedy is that the majority of the workers in that system, are decent honest people. These systems were created with the good intention of serving humans, now humans are serving the systems.

where the fact that it's now clear I was talking about the NHS over 'decades' (as opposed to just the present state of affairs) means that 'billions' (as opposed to millions) was indeed used intentionally, and, correctly, by me.

 

Guys- it's just easier and better in the long run, to just quote my actual words exactly, cos your strange habit of, instead, writing your (usually incorrect) interpretations, just wastes time and makes you look disingenious.

 

I can see why, for those debating for ego-expansion purposes only, it must be so tempting to substitute your own words/interpretations in place of my actual words, but it means you're basically just setting up, and knocking down, strawmen.

 

Just quote the actual words- why wouldn't you do that routinely???

Edited February 20, 2016 by onewheeldave

[JFKvsNixon]

I couldn't find it as, the best way, I find, to find stuff, is bang it in speech marks and search for it as a phrase on google.

 

However, JFK neglected to quote me, and, instead, put things into his own words, thus-

 

so it didn't come up in the search.

 

My actual words are those quoted in your recent post i.e.

 

where the fact that it's now clear I was talking about the NHS over 'decades' (as opposed to just the present state of affairs) means that 'billions' (as opposed to millions) was indeed used intentionally, and, correctly, by me.

 

Guys- it's just easier and better in the long run, to just quote my actual words exactly, cos your strange habit of, instead, writing your (usually incorrect) interpretations, just wastes time and makes you look disingenious.

 

I can see why, for those debating for ego-expansion purposes only, it must be so tempting to substitute your own words/interpretations in place of my actual words, but it means you're basically just setting up, and knocking down, strawmen.

 

Just quote the actual words- why wouldn't you do that routinely???

 

I copied and pasted your actual words, that's why they are in italics to show this.

 

I also did quote you here's the quote again.

I research a lot of stuff to do with health, diet etc.

 

These things are very complex, and, as you will fully realise, getting closer to truth takes a lot of time and energy (especially as there is a great deal of misinformation, distortion and suppression, due to the financial interests of the pharmaceutical & food industries).

 

So I have to prioritise- things like diet, b12 issue and why the NHS is so far removed from being a 'health' service, all affect me greatly, so that's what I spend my time researching.

 

Vaccinations, MMR etc I'm primarily interested in due to things like the NHS trying to coerce parents into getting their child/ren MMR'd, and refusing them the very reasonable alternative of seperate vaccinations.

 

Of course I defend the right of every parent to not have their child vaccinated- in general, I'm pro-choice.

 

But, as to whether vaccines per se are bad or good, I really couldn't say- I've simply not researched it to the extent that would be necessary. TBH, it's a low priority as I know I certainly won't be getting vaccinated, and, having no children, I won't have to face that decision either.

 

I can see there's some extremely suspicious behaviour with the national health services over vaccines, and it’s obvious that MMR and the ‘flu jab’ are likely things to avoid totally.

 

I also find that pseudo-rationalisr/sceptic types are drawn to vaccine support and national health system apologism, bringing in a lot of intellectual-sounding but logically invalid ‘arguments’ to bolster their cause. That’s not just annoying, it’s dangerous, because they’re propping up systems that are causing great harm.

 

The NHS blocking people from acquiring B12 is appaling. It’s crazy that it’s now preventing people from using a substance that they either need, or at least stongly feel they need it, when that substance is proven beyond doubt to be harmless, and, is also very cheap.

 

That’s a clear example, possibly the clearest, of a system that is out-of-control, not fit for purpose, and, extremely dangerous.

 

Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist, have turned these national health systems into monsters. The tragedy is that the majority of the workers in that system, are decent honest people. These systems were created with the good intention of serving humans, now humans are serving the systems.

Edited February 20, 2016 by JFKvsNixon

[onewheeldave]

 

You're right it doesn't say that vitamin B12 should be denied to those that need it. It even states that those who are still having symptoms of deficiency, whilst they are on the three month injection regime, should be referred to a specialist who can try to give them a more individual treatment program.

 

 

As b12 deficiency causes irreversible nerve damage if not treated, and, B12 methylcobalimin is totally harmless and cheap, the correct action is for those with actual symptoms of deficiency, should immediately be treated with b12.

 

Make an appointment with a specialist, by all means, but, in the intervening period, give them b12, becasue, it can do no harm, it's cheap, and, without it, they may well be suffering further irreversible nerve damage.

 

---------- Post added 20-02-2016 at 16:31 ----------

 

I copied and pasted your actual words, that's why they are in italics to show this.

 

Did you- how come they're so different then?

 

yours-

the NHS has billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist.

 

mine-

 

Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist,

 

not only is the first part completely different, you've missed out the 'decades' entirely.