Anti-vaccine attitudes based on that false claim still exist

[Obelix]

The man is nuts ... using claims like anti-depressants cause people to fall, break hips and die, to bolster his argument.

 

That's a somewhat valid point to take IMO - if antidepressants cause mania that results in injury then that surely is a somewhat deleterious side effect of the drug.

 

Of course if it stops you from suicide it's probably preferable. Like everything until you get the cold hard facts which have been so very missing in all of this we are just guessing in the dark

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2016 at 09:37 ----------

 

What a surprise

 

Hardly. I've given you far more than I should and been more than accommodating. You have no intention of debating. It's just a muck flinging contest and I've no intention of rolling in the s**t with you about it. If you post erroneous crap I will advise others that you are wrong and of your usual tactics so they are advised and don't make the same mistakes as me and the other good people on this thread.

[onewheeldave]

 

So, not a publication then?

 

 

 

No, as i stated, it's a video

 

 

 

 

Basically just a reference to authority.

 

.

I guess you could say Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration) is an authority. I wouldn't though, as 'authority' implies power/hierachy, I'd use the more pertinent term 'expert' instead.

[Eric Arthur]

(co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)

 

Prove it. It should be easy.

[onewheeldave]

ckgsheff, I've not seen that particular video I'll admit, but that guy and the research group he works for is actually highly regarded and one of the very few people I'd listen to about corruption in medical trials and studies. Doesn't mean he's right on everything, but if you look up the Cochrane Group you can see a lot of valid, peer-reviewed and accepted studies that they've done showing how large number of medical trials are conducted in a less than satisfactory manner, whether intentionally or not.

Thank you- it's good to see someone else stating those facts.

 

But, he's arguing for better measuring and controls on trials and not arguing that the entire medical industry is corrupt and that vaccines cause MMR or that the drugs that have been released after 'poor' trials have caused anymore damage to the population as a whole than if they'd been blocked.

I disagree. Here's a transcript of what he says from 1:07-1:27 in the video (his own words):

 

"much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)

 

The 'entire medical industry' is inextricably bound with the pharmaceutical industry and with the health ministers it corrupts.

 

(Please note- Peter presents no evidence for his claims in that video, and, I'm not claiming he does). I'm simply posting a video of a man who is one of the worlds leading experts when it comes to the medical trials evidence system, who is saying it is highly corrupted.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2016 at 09:59 ----------

 

Prove it. It should be easy.

 

For someone who's 'done with me'....

 

You don't even know what that means, and you demonstrate it time and time again. I'm done with you.

 

I know that I said I'd done with you, but......

 

 

....you certainly seem to keep bouncing back

 

What is it you want me to prove?

[Eric Arthur]

What is it you want me to prove?

Prove that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration please.

 

I can't find any authoritative reference that he is.

[unbeliever]

Thank you- it's good to see someone else stating those facts.

 

I disagree. Here's a transcript of what he says from 1:07-1:27 in the video (his own words):

 

"much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)

 

The 'entire medical industry' is inextricably bound with the pharmaceutical industry and with the health ministers it corrupts.

 

(Please note- Peter presents no evidence for his claims in that video, and, I'm not claiming he does). I'm simply posting a video of a man who is one of the worlds leading experts when it comes to the medical trials evidence system, who is saying it is highly corrupted.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2016 at 09:59 ----------

 

 

For someone who's 'done with me'....

 

 

 

 

 

 

....you certainly seem to keep bouncing back

 

What is it you want me to prove?

 

 

You're countering argumentum a posteriori with argumentum ad verecundiam.

This is the reverse of the scientific method.

Plato would approve but Galileo would be most disappointed.

 

You say that the scientific method is not being properly applied in medical studies. It is certainly true that there are plenty of cases where it could be applied better.

But your case is far further from the scientific method than the evidence you disbelieve. So we think it far less likely that you are correct than the (admittedly imperfect) scientific studies.

 

Hence the argument.

[Obelix]

Prove that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration please.

 

I can't find any authoritative reference that he is.

 

That's because he didn't as I well knew. I was waiting for OWD to walk into it but TBH I gave up on him.

 

The Guardian has a biopic of him - I'm sure if he was the cofounder it would say but instead they give the real story....

 

http://www.theguardian.com/profile/peter-gotzsche

 

"The thesis was read by Dr. Iain Chalmers, an Oxford professor who founded the Cochrane Collaboration, and invited Dr. Gotzsche to direct its Nordic branch. "

 

The CC was proposed by Cochrane and Chalmers started it. Gotzsche never worked for the original organisation but he did direct and lead the Nordic chapter.

 

That's hardly co-founding anything, in anyones book.

[Cyclone]

No, as i stated, it's a video

 

I guess you could say Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration) is an authority. I wouldn't though, as 'authority' implies power/hierachy, I'd use the more pertinent term 'expert' instead.

 

I had a look, it's a video with very obvious editing. I've no idea what he actually said in full, so I've no idea if the edited version represents his views or misrepresents them.

 

http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/appealauthterm.htm

 

A fallacy in which a rhetor seeks to persuade an audience not by giving evidence but by appealing to the respect people have for the famous.

[Eric Arthur]

The CC was proposed by Cochrane and Chalmers started it. Gotzsche never worked for the original organisation but he did direct and lead the Nordic chapter.

 

That's hardly co-founding anything, in anyones book.

 

I had a look, it's a video with very obvious editing. I've no idea what he actually said in full, so I've no idea if the edited version represents his views or misrepresents them.

 

The problem with doing research properly is that you often end up with an inconvenient truth.

[onewheeldave]

Prove that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration please.

 

I can't find any authoritative reference that he is.

 

What will count as proof that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration? What will count as an "authoritative reference"? (for you).