Anti-vaccine attitudes based on that false claim still exist

[unbeliever]

What will count as proof that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration? What will count as an "authoritative reference"? (for you).

 

Didn't have a problem with the paper you referenced. Other than that it supports nothing that you've said.

Any document or web page from the Cochrane Collaboration naming him as co-founder would do.

[Obelix]

The problem with doing research properly is that you often end up with an inconvenient truth.

 

Indeed. If OWD did do that he'd look less discomfited. I suppose I should have said that I had reasonable dealings with the CC in previous years but that spoils the fun.

[onewheeldave]

I had a look, it's a video with very obvious editing. I've no idea what he actually said in full, so I've no idea if the edited version represents his views or misrepresents them.

 

 

So, when he says, in the video (1:07-1:27)-

 

 

 

"much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)

 

... he's not saying the drug industry is corrupt to the point of criminality?!?

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2016 at 11:27 ----------

 

That's because he didn't as I well knew. I was waiting for OWD to walk into it but TBH I gave up on him.

 

The Guardian has a biopic of him - I'm sure if he was the cofounder it would say but instead they give the real story....

 

http://www.theguardian.com/profile/peter-gotzsche

 

"The thesis was read by Dr. Iain Chalmers, an Oxford professor who founded the Cochrane Collaboration, and invited Dr. Gotzsche to direct its Nordic branch. "

 

The CC was proposed by Cochrane and Chalmers started it. Gotzsche never worked for the original organisation but he did direct and lead the Nordic chapter.

 

That's hardly co-founding anything, in anyones book.

Are links to newspaper articles OK now then? In the past you guys have been very critcal of them. Is it OK cos it's the Guardian? What about the Mail, is that still out-of-bounds?

[Eric Arthur]

What will count as proof that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration? What will count as an "authoritative reference"? (for you).

 

So, when he says, in the video (1:07-1:27)-

 

 

 

"much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)

 

... he's not saying the drug industry is corrupt to the point of criminality?!?

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2016 at 11:27 ----------

 

Are links to newspaper articles OK now then? In the past you guys have been very critcal of them. Is it OK cos it's the Guardian? What about the Mail, is that still out-of-bounds?

 

Didn't have a problem with the paper you referenced. Other than that it supports nothing that you've said.

Any document or web page from the Cochrane Collaboration naming him as co-founder would do.

 

The bold above will be fine, unless you have some other authoritative source that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think that he is, and I don't think that he's claimed to be. His elevation is by people like you who need something to bolster their paper thin points of view which are a gross misrepresentation of Dr. Peter Gotzsche.

[onewheeldave]

The bold above will be fine, unless you have some other authoritative source that Dr. Peter Gotzsche is the co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think that he is, and I don't think that he's claimed to be. His elevation is by people like you who need something to bolster their paper thin points of view which are a gross misrepresentation of Dr. Peter Gotzsche.

 

And yet there's a publicly available video of him- his face on camera, his mouth saying these words-

 

""much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." Dr. Peter Gotzsche (co-founder of the Cochrane Collaboration)"

 

 

If I'm misrepresenting him, how come he's in that video saying those words?

[Cyclone]

It's carefully edited to remove any context for a start.

And not the key point that you were making earlier, which was about the number of people that die from drug side effects. An entirely meaningless number without the context of the number of people who are kept from dying and the number treat in the first place.

Finally, using the US as an example is not useful for the UK where we have a very different relationship between our Drs and the Pharma industry and the public.

[onewheeldave]

Finally, using the US as an example is not useful for the UK where we have a very different relationship between our Drs and the Pharma industry and the public.

 

I'm not trying to be "useful for the UK". The worlds gone global. Pharma corruption applies to every nation. In many things, where the US is now, the UK is likely to be following.

 

It's carefully edited to remove any context for a start.

 

What possible context could mean that when he says, on the video- ""much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries."

 

Can you, or anyone else here, supply a context (other than his family being held at gunpoint off-set) that would alter the very clear meaning of what he says there?

 

And that's just one clip, and one issue- this dudes working hard to get his information out there, anyone interested can just google "Dr. Peter Gotzsche" and access a lot more videos, of him being critical of a lot more things (SSRIs, anti-inflammatories etc)

[Cyclone]

You're not being useful to any country, so I wouldn't worry.

 

In case you hadn't realised though, we all live in the UK. So what happens in the US is not necessarily relevant to us. Your examples are not useful for residents of the UK who don't deal with the US medical system.

 

You keep repeating the sentence about akin to criminal behaviour. But that wasn't the one you were originally interested in, nor am I interested in discussing. You were interested in the number of people that die from side effects. Apparently your logical mind had missed the fact that you were lacking key evidence to evaluate what the number meant though.

 

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make. What are the specifics. If it's just a general "distrust" of pharma companies, then that's really very broad and not a very interesting thing to discuss. This thread was and is about vaccination. Do you have a specific claim about vaccination? A hypothesis perhaps, an opinion, something that can be examined?

Edited February 24, 2016 by Cyclone

[unbeliever]

I'm not trying to be "useful for the UK". The worlds gone global. Pharma corruption applies to every nation. In many things, where the US is now, the UK is likely to be following.

 

What possible context could mean that when he says, on the video- ""much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries."

 

Can you, or anyone else here, supply a context (other than his family being held at gunpoint off-set) that would alter the very clear meaning of what he says there?

 

And that's just one clip, and one issue- this dudes working hard to get his information out there, anyone interested can just google "Dr. Peter Gotzsche" and access a lot more videos, of him being critical of a lot more things (SSRIs, anti-inflammatories etc)

 

How about:

"some have said that" "much of what the drug industry does, fulfills the criteria for organised crime in US law. And they behave in many ways, like the mafia does. They corrupt everyone they can corrupt... they have bought every type of person, including ministers of health in some countries." "but this is not remotely true".

[onewheeldave]

 

You keep repeating the sentence about akin to criminal behaviour. But that wasn't the one you were originally interested in, nor am I interested in discussing.

Fair enough. That is, however, what I'm currently focused on.