Anti-vaccine attitudes based on that false claim still exist

[JFKvsNixon]

I'm actually quite happy with how I come to my conclusions.

 

How do you square up your trust in the NHS, when they refuse to engage with another countries data, derived from valid scientific sources, concerning things like B12 deficiency?

 

Is the Japanese evidence-based medical establishment inferior to the UKs?

 

Should I have gone with the NHS and not given myself b12?

 

Should I have ignored what the Japanese (and several European countries) medical systems say about b12, and, simply risked remaining deficient, rather than go against the NHS and procur b12 myself?

 

Health research isn't limited to national borders. I gave you a link to NICE's recommendations, which was referenced and I'm sure that the references weren't to limited to UK research. Maybe if you followed up the references you'd be in a better place to judge their rational.

 

Remember that the NICE's recommendations are for people who are still getting problems whilst on the recommended dose should have their care transferred to a specialist.

Edited March 2, 2016 by JFKvsNixon

[Cyclone]

Out of interest, where's the link showing that Japan does as you claim?

I've found a study that suggests that the lower level should be 500 Pmol, but nothing about routine treatment in Japan based on that study...

[Obelix]

I'm using 'research' in the sense of finding relevant facts. As you well know, I'm not running multi-million £ double-blind scientific studies.

 

So that's not "research". It's a literature search. Or rather it's cherry picking the results you want and ignoring others.

[unbeliever]

So that's not "research". It's a literature search. Or rather it's cherry picking the results you want and ignoring others.

 

And... silence.

Apparently quite happy to attack the accepted evidence gathering methods, but not willing to disclose his/her own.

[Obelix]

And... silence.

Apparently quite happy to attack the accepted evidence gathering methods, but not willing to disclose his/her own.

 

You know when OWD started asking questions earlier about the contents of vaccines I thought just perhaps that he'd start engaging some critical thinking.

 

Sadly I doubt thats the case.

[onewheeldave]

Health research isn't limited to national borders. I gave you a link to NICE's recommendations, which was referenced and I'm sure that the references weren't to limited to UK research. Maybe if you followed up the references you'd be in a better place to judge their rational.

 

Remember that the NICE's recommendations are for people who are still getting problems whilst on the recommended dose should have their care transferred to a specialist.

 

My opinion is that anyone with low B12 and symptoms of B12 deficiency should be given B12 immediately, either pills, or, if an absorbancy issue is suspected, intra-muscular injections.

 

This is in accordance with advice from experts I respect.

 

More so, given that B12 is cheap and very, very safe, and, because by the time symptoms of B12 manifest, it is very possible that irreversible nerve damage has, and, is, occurring.

 

In the, up to several months, it takes for a patient to see a specialist, if they are B12 deficient, irreversible nerve damage will continue to occur during those months. Months when they could be getting B12, rather than irreversible nerve damage.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 20:21 ----------

 

Now you're starting to sound like Mac.

Can you imagine the scale of the conspiracy that would be required to falsify the data about deaths from influenza. Not just in 1 country, but in multiple countries.

 

No conspiracy is required. I'm not big on conspiracy theories, because they require villains, and, I'm not sure the villains exist.

 

Also, if it is a conspiracy theory, it would require, as you point out, a high degree of co-ordination amongst many big organisations.

 

No- the problem here is systemic- this isn't high-up evil people trying to dose up the population. It's a natural consequence of the over-systematisation we see in all large organisations whose operation is based on profit.

 

What we have here is, fundamentally good people, directed and bound by systemic procedures and rules, who are cogs in a system which is producing harm/evil.

 

Just as a nation of good people (the Germans) became cogs in a system (the Third Reich) which perpetuated acts now considered to be amongst the most harmful/evil in human history.

 

There is no conspiracy- that's just a smoke screen which, unfortunately distracts from the real problem- gross over systemisation.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 20:23 ----------

 

Out of interest, where's the link showing that Japan does as you claim?

I've found a study that suggests that the lower level should be 500 Pmol, but nothing about routine treatment in Japan based on that study...

 

I've no link to Japans health service policy on minimum B12.

 

Most of the writings I've encountered on the b12 issue comment on Japan giving b12 to anyone below the 500 pmol mark.

 

So I've assumed they're telling the truth.

 

If anyone's got a valid link showing that it's not true, then I'll change my view.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 20:33 ----------

 

And... silence.

Apparently quite happy to attack the accepted evidence gathering methods, but not willing to disclose his/her own.

 

Just to be clear-

 

That doesn't answer my question.

 

What criteria do you use to judge whether a 'fact' that you find is likely to be true?

Additionally, having determined that an individual 'fact' is correct, how do you determine what weight to give it and how it should be extrapolated?

 

No, I have no intention of answering those questions. Like I said earlier, I'm very happy with my info sources. You will not engage with them, which is your decision, but, I'm happy with them.

 

I've been very clear on the fact that, where orthodox medical studies are concerned, I take them with a pinch of salt, due to what I know about pharmaceutical company corruption.

 

If all you're going to accept is medical study evidence, then fair enough (for you).

 

It's of no use to me, as it's not trustworthy.

 

But I still need to find things out, for my own healths sake. I certainly found with diet/nutrition, that the info I got from reliable anecdotal sources, was of infinitly more use than medical study papers. It was partly the outright contradictions of medical study papers that led me to suspect problems in that system- suspicions which have been shown to be true since then.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 20:35 ----------

 

And... silence.

Apparently quite happy to attack the accepted evidence gathering methods, but not willing to disclose his/her own.

 

Anecdotal, and, listening to experts I respect- primarily experts working within the system, who are vocally opposed to aspects of that system.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 20:39 ----------

 

So that's not "research". It's a literature search. Or rather it's cherry picking the results you want and ignoring others.

 

It's not cherry picking- I go out of my way to also listen to people on the opposite side to mine.

 

It's important to try and find good arguments against ones own views/beliefs. It either strengthens those beliefs, or, it destroys them. Either is good, as it brings you closer to the truth.

 

If anyone wants me to respect medical study evidence more, then I'm going to need some evidence that the whole system isn't as corrupted as I currently believe it to be.

 

And I'm not sure what would constitute good evidence for that.

[JFKvsNixon]

My opinion is that anyone with low B12 and symptoms of B12 deficiency should be given B12 immediately, either pills, or, if an absorbancy issue is suspected, intra-muscular injections.

 

This is in accordance with advice from experts I respect.

 

More so, given that B12 is cheap and very, very safe, and, because by the time symptoms of B12 manifest, it is very possible that irreversible nerve damage has, and, is, occurring.

 

In the, up to several months, it takes for a patient to see a specialist, if they are B12 deficient, irreversible nerve damage will continue to occur during those months. Months when they could be getting B12, rather than irreversible nerve damage

 

It depends on how urgent the referral is, I've know patients to see a specialist in the same week that they're referred.

 

I think that being it's important that a specialist does review anyone who's still having problems, even though they are on the recommended dose so the can both rule out anything else that may be going on and suggest a more suitable form of treatment.

 

How can you not respect the NICE guidelines if your haven't reviewed the research that it is based upon. It seems like to me that you only value research that backs up your own existing opinions rather than looking for the research to guide your opinions.

[retep]

I'd spotted it before. This is just another case where you choose to beleive the exact contrary position of what the quote is saying.

 

You won't find "water" on the list of ingredients for a cheesecake - at least not the way I make it. Nonetheless it is present in the final product.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 12:58 ----------

 

 

Evidence has to be repeatable, testable, and falsifiable to be of any value. And before you start wondering, I suggest you look up what falsifiable means in the scientific method sense.

 

A youtube video doenst specify the method - so it's not repeatable, and whilst it may be testable it often isnt, nor is it usually falsifiable. That's what makes it worthless.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 13:00 ----------

 

 

The experts who are pro vax also have rigorous proof to back up their position. That's what makes the difference. Appeal to authority in any form is a logical fallacy.

 

---------- Post added 02-03-2016 at 13:01 ----------

 

 

Which killed more? World War One or the Spanish Flu?

 

Did vaccination cure it?

[JFKvsNixon]

Did vaccination cure it?

 

Are you asking a genuine question or are you acting like a troll?

[onewheeldave]

Are you asking a genuine question or are you acting like a troll?

 

I think he's asking a genuine question?

 

Remember that on this thread, the previous time stats concerning vaccinations was posted, it quickly became apparent that cases had shown a significant decrease (this was a point of discussion/debate/disagreement) before vaccinations started.

 

To some of us, that cast serious doubt on whether vaccines caused the continuing drop.