Seven day NHS, free?

[sutty27]

Where are you getting your details for what is being proposed?

 

One of the links in that link also opens a document which shows the original contract and the final contract.

 

It looks like the fine is still in place.

 

We will also introduce a new Guardian role within every Trust, who will have the authority to impose fines for breaches to agreed working hours based on excess hours worked. These fines will be invested in educational resources and facilities for trainees.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/jeremy-hunt-updates-parliament-on-the-junior-doctors-contract

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 16:53 ----------

 

The link said nothing about a mechanism where the hospitals were fined automatically, making it cheaper to higher locums instead of overworking their junior doctors.

 

Here's what the BMA said about the guardian role:

 

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 15:30 ----------

 

 

Ok, if you believe that junior doctors will be better paid under the new contract, how does it free up funds to implement the 7 day service as you indicated earlier?

 

I don't think it was ever intended to free up funds.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 16:56 ----------

 

On safety, the existing contract provides inadequate safeguards for doctors, too many of whom still work unsafe hours. It allows work of up to 91 hours in any one week and to exceed other working time limits. There are insufficient safeguards against consecutive long shifts. And it can be very difficult to speak up when junior doctors believe that safety is being compromised as a result.

 

The new contract proposals will improve patient safety - with safeguards introduced in relation to hours worked, breaks between shifts, and accountability and oversight.

 

The contract proposals to improve patient safety include:

 

introduction of new strict safeguards on hours worked with an upper limit of: 72 hours in a 7-day period (compared to 91 now), 4 consecutive night shifts (compared to 7 now), and 5 consecutive day shifts (compared to 12). The aim is also to provide greater flexibility on rotas, enabling doctors to better arrange working hours around their needs

introduction of break shifts of 48 hours off after 3 or 4 consecutive night shifts or 5 long days, and a maximum of 8 consecutive days worked (also to be followed by a minimum 48-hour break)

setting out work schedule contracted hours for junior doctors and employers will also identify the learning opportunities that will be provided to meet doctors’ learning needs

creation of a new senior leadership role in every hospital, a “Guardian of Safe Working” whose appointment would be agreed with the BMA. Junior doctors would be able to report exceptions and concerns to this guardian without fear and request a review if they are not treated as promised

scrutiny by The Care Quality Commission of junior doctors’ working time as part of their inspection process

 

In addition, the proposals make clear that financial penalties for employers would be put in place where there are consistent breaches of working time regulations. This money would be held by the Guardian at each Trust and would be spent on improving the working conditions or education of doctors in training in their institution.

[Berberis]

They will be paid more than £22,000, they start at £27,000 but are expected to earn more if they work unsocial hours and over overtime.

 

In the most junior hospital trainee post of Foundation year 1 your basic starting salary is £22,636. This increases in Foundation year 2 to £28,076.

 

Ref: https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/careers-medicine/pay-doctors

[JFKvsNixon]

One of the links in that link also opens a document which shows the original contract and the final contract.

 

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 16:53 ----------

 

 

I don't think it was ever intended to free up funds.

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 16:56 ----------

 

On safety, the existing contract provides inadequate safeguards for doctors, too many of whom still work unsafe hours. It allows work of up to 91 hours in any one week and to exceed other working time limits. There are insufficient safeguards against consecutive long shifts. And it can be very difficult to speak up when junior doctors believe that safety is being compromised as a result.

 

The new contract proposals will improve patient safety - with safeguards introduced in relation to hours worked, breaks between shifts, and accountability and oversight.

 

The contract proposals to improve patient safety include:

 

introduction of new strict safeguards on hours worked with an upper limit of: 72 hours in a 7-day period (compared to 91 now), 4 consecutive night shifts (compared to 7 now), and 5 consecutive day shifts (compared to 12). The aim is also to provide greater flexibility on rotas, enabling doctors to better arrange working hours around their needs

introduction of break shifts of 48 hours off after 3 or 4 consecutive night shifts or 5 long days, and a maximum of 8 consecutive days worked (also to be followed by a minimum 48-hour break)

setting out work schedule contracted hours for junior doctors and employers will also identify the learning opportunities that will be provided to meet doctors’ learning needs

creation of a new senior leadership role in every hospital, a “Guardian of Safe Working” whose appointment would be agreed with the BMA. Junior doctors would be able to report exceptions and concerns to this guardian without fear and request a review if they are not treated as promised

scrutiny by The Care Quality Commission of junior doctors’ working time as part of their inspection process

 

In addition, the proposals make clear that financial penalties for employers would be put in place where there are consistent breaches of working time regulations. This money would be held by the Guardian at each Trust and would be spent on improving the working conditions or education of doctors in training in their institution.

 

The BMA's position is that feel that the guardian proposal wouldn't be independent or robust enough to replace a system that they feel works well.

[Berberis]

Can't you make up your mind?

 

Doctors as opposed to Junior Doctors. Keep up.

[sutty27]

In the most junior hospital trainee post of Foundation year 1 your basic starting salary is £22,636. This increases in Foundation year 2 to £28,076.

 

Ref: https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/careers-medicine/pay-doctors

 

That's now, they are getting a pay rise.

 

Appendix A of the new contract says that the November offer was for F1 was £25,500 and the final contract is £27,000.

 

Summary of the 2016 contract

 

---------- Post added 15-02-2016 at 17:35 ----------

 

The BMA's position is that feel that the guardian proposal wouldn't be independent or robust enough to replace a system that they feel works well.

 

What the BMA think doesn't change the fact that a mechanism will be in place to stop doctors working more hours than they should.

Edited February 15, 2016 by sutty27

[JFKvsNixon]

What the BMA think doesn't change the fact that a mechanism will be in place to stop doctors working more hours than they should.

 

The BMA believe that it will be an inferior protection compared to what is there at the moment. No automatic fine that that hospital can weasel out of, it won't be independent of the hospitals and it won't be robust enough.

 

So they're saying that there will be an inferior protection for their patients under the new contract.

[sutty27]

The BMA believe that it will be an inferior protection compared to what is there at the moment. No automatic fine that that hospital can weasel out of, it won't be independent of the hospitals and it won't be robust enough.

 

So they're saying that there will be an inferior protection for their patients under the new contract.

 

You've moved positions from there not being a mechanism in place, to its no good because a union doesn't like it.

[JFKvsNixon]

You've moved positions from there not being a mechanism in place, to its no good because a union doesn't like it.

 

No I haven't.

 

I have always been talking about the automatic mechanism where the hospitals got fined. The hospital couldn't weasel out of it, there was no discussion. It was robust and independent to the point that it was cheaper for the hospitals to hire locums rather than pay the fine.

[sutty27]

No I haven't.

 

I have always been talking about the automatic mechanism where the hospitals got fined. The hospital couldn't weasel out of it, there was no discussion. It was robust and independent to the point that it was cheaper for the hospitals to hire locums rather than pay the fine.

 

That would be the mechanism that saw thousands of doctors working far more hour than they should have, that meant they worked whilst tiered and put patients at risk, the one which didn't save the life of a young doctor that fell asleep at the wheel whilst driving home after a week of very long shifts. It clearly didn't work did it and what evidence do you have that the new system will be worse, on the face of it it will be a significant improvement.

 

We are going round in circles and its very unlikely that we will ever agree, this is the potition that the government and BMA found themselves in and the reason the government had no choice but to impose the new contract, they would have never reached total agreement.

[JFKvsNixon]

That would be the mechanism that saw thousands of doctors working far more hour than they should have, that meant they worked whilst tiered and put patients at risk, the one which didn't save the life of a young doctor that fell asleep at the wheel whilst driving home after a week of very long shifts. It clearly didn't work did it and what evidence do you have that the new system will be worse, on the face of it it will be a significant improvement.

 

We are going round in circles and its very unlikely that we will ever agree, this is the potition that the government and BMA found themselves in and the reason the government had no choice but to impose the new contract, they would have never reached total agreement.

 

OK, so we are back to you believing that unless something works 100% of the time, it isn't successful.

 

My position is with the BMA. They are not a radical group who strikes at the drop of a hat. I believe that they are looking after the best interests of their members and also the patient's.

 

If Hunt hadn't acted in such a disingenuous manner all the way through these negotiations, I would be more willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. You also have to remember his disingenuous attitude towards the nurses and midwives pay negotiations which also led to strikes.

 

His only interest is getting the 7 day week of the ground. Which if he tries to get a 7 working week, whilst still giving the NHS the same resources that it gets to work a 5 day working week, it will also be an huge confrontation.