GLASGOWOODS Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 No, you clearly do not have every sympathy- you could have more sympathy- you're supporting a process which has, is and will continue to, push fragile people over the edge into suicide. The process is NOT simple- I've been through it myself and it is torturous and degrading. Especially as many of the victims of it are, for example, autistic and at a severe disadvantage when it comes to filling in long, badly worded forms and dealing with the incompetance of the DWP admin systems. Well, you're going to have to go through it line-by-line if you want to produce some actual evidence of your bizarre claims that "only a third of that list are people who actually had benefits stopped". Sorry if that sounds harsh, but, this process is killing vulnerable adults, and people like you are letting it happen through your system apologism and denial of the truth. This process needs ending now- and, if that means a small amount of malingerers getting benefits they're not entitled to, so be it. Because the alternative is genuinely vulnerable adults dying. Plus, you'll get at least as much fraud as this process is so distressing and degrading, that many genuinely disabled/ill/vulnerable people cannot actually complete it. ---------- Post added 20-02-2016 at 11:21 ---------- Yes. Because it would stop genuinely vulnerable adults commiting suicide through the threat of losing their home. And something along the lines of- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income would also make benefit fraud impossible. ---------- Post added 20-02-2016 at 11:22 ---------- Maybe you should apply for a job with ATOS then, cos they clearly can't. Are you in employment onewheeldave? I'm guessing not. The link you provided obviously shows people who deserve the benefits, others i'm not so sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Are you in employment onewheeldave? Yes. The link you provided obviously shows people who deserve the benefits, others i'm not so sure. Yes, the link does show people who deserved the benefits (past tense due to the fact that they are all now dead, after been denied the benefits they deserved, and were therefore unable to buy food or pay rent). Benefit fraudsters are irrelevant to, and, in no way a justification for, the inhumane benefits system that caused the deaths of those who did deserve benefits. And, when benefit fraud measures lead to the deaths of those who are rightfully entitled to benefits, it's time to stop those measures. Because if turning over a few fraudsters also involves innocent vulnerable adults dying unecessarily, it is totally unfit for purpose, immoral, and, may well lead to the same consequences as it did the last time a nation decided to persecute the vulnerable and disabled. Remember we all said 'never again' after that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bloke Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Well, you're going to have to go through it line-by-line if you want to produce some actual evidence of your bizarre claims that "only a third of that list are people who actually had benefits stopped". If you really want me to, I will; I'm not exactly sure why I'm bothering as it's your source so you should trust the data within. It feels rather heartless to be doing so, as each person who had their disability benefits cut because they were told incorrectly they were fit to work is a travesty and I'm not defending that no matter what you think. Synopsis of the list, highlighting people who incorrectly had disability benefits cut: 1) Terry McGarvey - died at the assessment 2) Elaine Lowe - fearful of losing benefits 3) Mark Wood - had benefits cut 4) Paul Reekie - had benefits cut 5) Leanne Chambers - asked to have an assessment 6) Karen Sherlock - had benefits cut 7) Carl Payne - fearful of losing beneftis 8 ) Tim Salter - had benefits cut 9) Edward Jacques - had benefits cut 10) Linda Wootton - had benefits cut 11) Steve Cawthra - no reference to disability benefits 12) Elenore Tatton - had benefits cut 13) John Walker - bedroom tax 14) Brian McArdle - had benefits cut 15) Stephen Hill - had benefits cut 16) Jacqueline Harris - had benefits cut 17) David Barr - had benefits cut 18 ) David Groves - died before the assessment 19) Nicholas Peter Barker - had benefits cut 20) Mark and Helen Mullins - were in receipt of benefits 21) Richard Sanderson - no reference to disability benefits 22) Martin Rust - had benefits cut 23) Craig Monk - fearful of losing benefits 24) Colin Traynor - had benefits cut 25) Elaine Christian - fearful of losing benefits 26) Christelle Pardoe - JSA and HB, wasn't disabled 27) Mark Scott - had benefits cut 28 ) Cecilia Burns - had benefits cut 29) Chris Cann - fearful of losing benefits 30) Peter Hodgson - fearful of losing benefits 31) Paul Willcoxsin - fearful of losing benefits 32) Stephanie Bottrill - bedroom tax 33) Larry Newman - had benefits cut 34) Paul Turner - can argue the toss about this one. Even his own doctor said he could work, and he had a heart attack whilst on holiday in the south of France. Giving the benefit of the doubt though 35) Christopher Harkness - nothing to do with his personal benefits 36) Sandra Moon - fearful of losing benefits 37) Lee Robinson - HB and Council tax 38 ) David Coupe - had benefits cut 39) Michael McNicholas - fearful of losing benefits 40) Victor Cuff - had benefits cut 41) Charles Barden - bedroom tax 42) Ian Caress - had benefits cut 43) Iain Hodge - had benefits cut 44) Wayne Grew - fearful of losing his job 45) Kevin Bennett - JSA 46) David Harries - no evidence he was on benefits 47) Denis Jones - bedroom tax 48 ) Shaun Pilkington - had benefits cut 49) Paul ? - had benefits cut 50) Chris MaGuire - article in the Socialist Worker makes no link between benefit cuts and cause of death 51) Peter Duut - had no right to UK benefits 52) George Scollen - lost his job at Remploy 53) Julian Little - bedroom tax 54) Miss DE - had benefits cut 55) Robert Barlow - had benefits cut 56) Carl Foster-Brown - no reference to disability 56) Martin Hadfield - not disabled, wasn't on benefits 57) Annette Francis - had benefits cut 58 ) Ian Jordan - had benefits cut 59) Janet McCall - had benefits cut 60) Stuart Holley - JSA 61) Graham Shawcross - had benefits cut 62) David Clapson - JSA 63) Chris Smith - had benefits cut 64) Nathan Hartwell - had benefits cut after cycling from John O'Groats to Lands End for charity 65) Michael Connolly - no reference to disability 66) Jan Mandeville - bedroom tax 67) Trevor Drakard - fearful of losing benefits 68 ) Unknown - bedroom tax 32 of 68 - so my apologies, my guesstimate of a third was wrong, it's actually just under half of that list that reference disabled people having benefits stopped by ATOS. I reiterate, even one person is one too many, but that source is in effect 'dirty data'. Edited February 20, 2016 by the_bloke The 8 ) smilies are rather inappropriate in this context.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Pardon? I have every sympathy for someone who has had their benefit stopped when they were in genuine need. Please don't tell me what I feel from the top of your high horse; it's an emotive subject but that's no need to blinker yourself to differing viewpoints. Please read your source beyond the first few lines. The process is simple; a) Fill in a form with details of your claim b) You may be asked for an assessment c) A decision is made to see if you can continue to claim It's clear that at point c) there are some horrendous mistakes being made, and I'm not going to defend that at all. My own mother had her disability stopped even though she is plainly unable to work after filling in the (huge) form at point a) Your list is very ambiguous indeed; it includes people who have passed away even before they reached point a) or b). This was my point earlier. I'm not about to go through it line by line, but a quick glance would suggest only a third of that list are people who actually had benefits stopped. If these are the figures being quoted then they are wrong. You can't blame the tragic deaths of people on ATOS and the DWP due to benefit cuts and give examples of people who didn't even claim or have benefit stopped. It doesn't overlook the real issue though - if genuine people are having benefits stopped, then it's not the form filling and interview process that is wrong, it's the human making the final decision. The human making the final decision works to a strict protocol designed to take the autonomy out of the final decision. Judgement and common sense don't seem to come into it. This is true of the entire process, so it is the form, the interview, the whole process that is wrong. It's a tick box exercise and some humans simply don't fit into boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bloke Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 [/b] The human making the final decision works to a strict protocol designed to take the autonomy out of the final decision. Judgement and common sense don't seem to come into it. This is true of the entire process, so it is the form, the interview, the whole process that is wrong. It's a tick box exercise and some humans simply don't fit into boxes. What's the alternative? The old way, where a GP would say someone isn't fit to work yet the GP in the room next door would say they are fine? Do you think ATOS would have signed this guy off as being unfit to work? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418941/Married-father-five-benefits-cheat-swindled-67-000-disability-payouts-claiming-barely-walk-managed-climb-10-flights-stairs-work-played-cricket-weekend.html It's no good declaring the current system as unfit for purpose when the old one wasn't any better and no one seems to be putting forward a credible alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Once again the at all costs defence of everything this rotten government does. Many posters now defending these assessments would, let's face it, be tearing the government apart on this thread if this was happening under Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bloke Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Once again the at all costs defence of everything this rotten government does. Many posters now defending these assessments would, let's face it, be tearing the government apart on this thread if this was happening under Labour. I've already pointed out it's faults; people are wrongly being classed as fit for work. If you want to politicise it, I could say that there is no surprise that the system has issues considering it was brought in by Labour in 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewheeldave Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 It's no good declaring the current system as unfit for purpose when the old one wasn't any better and no one seems to be putting forward a credible alternative. alternative: scrap the assessment, make sure scum like ATOS are allowed no where near vulnerable adults in future. Accept that there are a small minority of fraudsters, whether there are assessments or not, but be reasurred by the fact that hundreds of genuinely disabled vulnerable adults will no longer be committing suicide. Then, when the system currently responsible for the deaths of hundreds of genuinely disabled vulnerable adults is dismantled and they are safe from the threat of homelessness/starvation, then, work on creating a fair assessment system. ---------- Post added 20-02-2016 at 15:24 ---------- [/b] It's a tick box exercise and some humans simply don't fit into boxes. As a diagnosed autistic, I can confirm that this is so, very, very true. I think if you could somehow make the general public and medical professionals and politicans understand only one thing- it would be that "some humans simply don't fit into boxes". If we all understood that, ATOS 'assessments' and their like, would simply not be tolerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I've already pointed out it's faults; people are wrongly being classed as fit for work. If you want to politicise it, I could say that there is no surprise that the system has issues considering it was brought in by Labour in 2008. It is a political issue. The rhetoric from the Tories and the DWP confirm that. Claimants of every type of benefit (except pensioners really) have been classed as spongers. Even the disabled. How easy it's been for average IQ Tory supporting meatheads to slip into attacking the disabled! It's a national disgrace really. This even manifests in the language the DWP uses. Nobody has really mentioned the threatening and hectoring tone of the letters that get sent out to vulnerable people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLASGOWOODS Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 alternative: scrap the assessment, make sure scum like ATOS are allowed no where near vulnerable adults in future. Accept that there are a small minority of fraudsters, whether there are assessments or not, but be reasurred by the fact that hundreds of genuinely disabled vulnerable adults will no longer be committing suicide. Then, when the system currently responsible for the deaths of hundreds of genuinely disabled vulnerable adults is dismantled and they are safe from the threat of homelessness/starvation, then, work on creating a fair assessment system. ---------- Post added 20-02-2016 at 15:24 ---------- As a diagnosed autistic, I can confirm that this is so, very, very true. I think if you could somehow make the general public and medical professionals and politicans understand only one thing- it would be that "some humans simply don't fit into boxes". If we all understood that, ATOS 'assessments' and their like, would simply not be tolerated. So what system would you prefer to assess people on benefits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now