Free movement of people

[andyofborg]

That's an excellent post Zamo.

Our politicians (including the EU set up) are leading us into this situation. Why they cant see the problem is totally beyond me.

 

Because there are loads of wider and deeper problems....

 

One is the globalisation of capital which has led to economic migration - people have always gone where the money was ever since we invented the stuff and international travel have never been easier.

 

I'm not sure that there is a way we can deglobalise capital without collapsing the world economy. However, if we could put in place agreements that more of the wealth was retained in the place it was created and it was spread more equally amongst the population by higher wages and/or redistributive taxation then some of the pressure for economic migration would be lifted.

 

Another is that it appears that Europeans and other developed nations aren't breeding fast enough to provide enough workers to do the jobs which we have. Certainly in the UK, employers since the 80s all but refused to train staff, preferring to either outsource the work or import foreign workers. In addition, there is some anecdotal evidence in the UK, at least, that a proportion of the unemployed are work-shy and some lack the basic education and skills to be able to get a job. Halting economic migration wont change this. If they cant get the workers here then companies will just move overseas or close. In one way a shortage of labour is a good thing in the sense that it will raise wages but it will eventually raise prices too and you only have to look at the number of threads on here where people moan about the price of various goods and services to know how much of a problem rising prices would be. Using the stick of benefit sanctions to drive people into jobs they don't want and don't have the skills for is not going to make things better. There needs to be some carrot too! Promises of higher wages helps but there needs to be something deeper. When I grew up there was an attitude that each generation would be and do better than the previous one, that seems to have vanished. We need to find a way to regenerate that aspiration. We also need to rebuild the education and training system so that it produces properly educated and trained people not just provide fodder for the a4e and academy “get rich” schemes.

 

We have always accepted people escaping from conflicts and wars and I'm not sure that we should stop doing that now. The lack of a sensible economic migration route prompted all the "bogus asylum seeker" stories from the late 1990s and that has poisoned the well of human kindness which drove our desire to help. We need to disconnect the two and have a system which identifies and provides for genuine asylum seekers.

 

As regards the current problems with people trying to escape from the war in Syria to a large extent this is a situation of our own making. Not just from our ditherings about whether or not to get militarily involved but the lack of help for the refugees. Just before Christmas someone from the UN was interviewed and he claimed that with a fraction (10% as far as I recall) of what Germany was planning to spend he could pretty much satisfy the needs of the refugees and he was confident that there would be very little need for people to try and get to Europe. It's a shame that Europe, didn't take him up on his offer. The 10% might have been an underestimate but even if the cost was really 70 or 80% it would have been worth it...

 

As regards the political issues in the Middle East and beyond, then there are some parallels with Europe before the Reformation and Muslims need to go through a similar process. The European Reformation came at the end of a period of horrendous suffering and bloodshed. While I can understand the West's desire to help Muslims, this is something which must come from within.

 

What we must do is stop portraying every Muslim as being some sort of rabid jihadist intent in killing every non Muslim in the universe. It simply isn't true. On the other hand, we can't just walk away since there is the West's continuing addiction to oil and we also we need to make sure that the violent jihadist elements don't gain enough strength to completely dominate the region.

[Solomon1]

I can't argue with it, it's a very sensible post, maybe not what everyone wants to hear but it makes sense when you look at the bigger picture.

 

Let's hope you never have to rely on the charity of others

 

Eh

[sutty27]

Because there are loads of wider and deeper problems....

 

One is the globalisation of capital which has led to economic migration - people have always gone where the money was ever since we invented the stuff and international travel have never been easier.

 

I'm not sure that there is a way we can deglobalise capital without collapsing the world economy. However, if we could put in place agreements that more of the wealth was retained in the place it was created and it was spread more equally amongst the population by higher wages and/or redistributive taxation then some of the pressure for economic migration would be lifted.

 

Another is that it appears that Europeans and other developed nations aren't breeding fast enough to provide enough workers to do the jobs which we have. Certainly in the UK, employers since the 80s all but refused to train staff, preferring to either outsource the work or import foreign workers. In addition, there is some anecdotal evidence in the UK, at least, that a proportion of the unemployed are work-shy and some lack the basic education and skills to be able to get a job. Halting economic migration wont change this. If they cant get the workers here then companies will just move overseas or close. In one way a shortage of labour is a good thing in the sense that it will raise wages but it will eventually raise prices too and you only have to look at the number of threads on here where people moan about the price of various goods and services to know how much of a problem rising prices would be. Using the stick of benefit sanctions to drive people into jobs they don't want and don't have the skills for is not going to make things better. There needs to be some carrot too! Promises of higher wages helps but there needs to be something deeper. When I grew up there was an attitude that each generation would be and do better than the previous one, that seems to have vanished. We need to find a way to regenerate that aspiration. We also need to rebuild the education and training system so that it produces properly educated and trained people not just provide fodder for the a4e and academy “get rich” schemes.

 

We have always accepted people escaping from conflicts and wars and I'm not sure that we should stop doing that now. The lack of a sensible economic migration route prompted all the "bogus asylum seeker" stories from the late 1990s and that has poisoned the well of human kindness which drove our desire to help. We need to disconnect the two and have a system which identifies and provides for genuine asylum seekers.

 

As regards the current problems with people trying to escape from the war in Syria to a large extent this is a situation of our own making. Not just from our ditherings about whether or not to get militarily involved but the lack of help for the refugees. Just before Christmas someone from the UN was interviewed and he claimed that with a fraction (10% as far as I recall) of what Germany was planning to spend he could pretty much satisfy the needs of the refugees and he was confident that there would be very little need for people to try and get to Europe. It's a shame that Europe, didn't take him up on his offer. The 10% might have been an underestimate but even if the cost was really 70 or 80% it would have been worth it...

 

As regards the political issues in the Middle East and beyond, then there are some parallels with Europe before the Reformation and Muslims need to go through a similar process. The European Reformation came at the end of a period of horrendous suffering and bloodshed. While I can understand the West's desire to help Muslims, this is something which must come from within.

 

What we must do is stop portraying every Muslim as being some sort of rabid jihadist intent in killing every non Muslim in the universe. It simply isn't true. On the other hand, we can't just walk away since there is the West's continuing addiction to oil and we also we need to make sure that the violent jihadist elements don't gain enough strength to completely dominate the region.

 

I like the argument that because we have always done something we should continue to do it. In our past we would have used force to prevent an invasion.

[Eric Arthur]

What we must do is stop portraying every Muslim as being some sort of rabid jihadist intent in killing every non Muslim in the universe. It simply isn't true.

I dont think it is true that we're doing that. The question is, how do you work out which are rabid jihadists intent in killing every non Muslim in the universe?

[Zamo]

Because there are loads of wider and deeper problems....

 

One is the globalisation of capital which has led to economic migration - people have always gone where the money was ever since we invented the stuff and international travel have never been easier.

 

I'm not sure that there is a way we can deglobalise capital without collapsing the world economy. However, if we could put in place agreements that more of the wealth was retained in the place it was created and it was spread more equally amongst the population by higher wages and/or redistributive taxation then some of the pressure for economic migration would be lifted.

 

Another is that it appears that Europeans and other developed nations aren't breeding fast enough to provide enough workers to do the jobs which we have. Certainly in the UK, employers since the 80s all but refused to train staff, preferring to either outsource the work or import foreign workers. In addition, there is some anecdotal evidence in the UK, at least, that a proportion of the unemployed are work-shy and some lack the basic education and skills to be able to get a job. Halting economic migration wont change this. If they cant get the workers here then companies will just move overseas or close. In one way a shortage of labour is a good thing in the sense that it will raise wages but it will eventually raise prices too and you only have to look at the number of threads on here where people moan about the price of various goods and services to know how much of a problem rising prices would be. Using the stick of benefit sanctions to drive people into jobs they don't want and don't have the skills for is not going to make things better. There needs to be some carrot too! Promises of higher wages helps but there needs to be something deeper. When I grew up there was an attitude that each generation would be and do better than the previous one, that seems to have vanished. We need to find a way to regenerate that aspiration. We also need to rebuild the education and training system so that it produces properly educated and trained people not just provide fodder for the a4e and academy “get rich” schemes.

 

We have always accepted people escaping from conflicts and wars and I'm not sure that we should stop doing that now. The lack of a sensible economic migration route prompted all the "bogus asylum seeker" stories from the late 1990s and that has poisoned the well of human kindness which drove our desire to help. We need to disconnect the two and have a system which identifies and provides for genuine asylum seekers.

 

As regards the current problems with people trying to escape from the war in Syria to a large extent this is a situation of our own making. Not just from our ditherings about whether or not to get militarily involved but the lack of help for the refugees. Just before Christmas someone from the UN was interviewed and he claimed that with a fraction (10% as far as I recall) of what Germany was planning to spend he could pretty much satisfy the needs of the refugees and he was confident that there would be very little need for people to try and get to Europe. It's a shame that Europe, didn't take him up on his offer. The 10% might have been an underestimate but even if the cost was really 70 or 80% it would have been worth it...

 

As regards the political issues in the Middle East and beyond, then there are some parallels with Europe before the Reformation and Muslims need to go through a similar process. The European Reformation came at the end of a period of horrendous suffering and bloodshed. While I can understand the West's desire to help Muslims, this is something which must come from within.

 

What we must do is stop portraying every Muslim as being some sort of rabid jihadist intent in killing every non Muslim in the universe. It simply isn't true. On the other hand, we can't just walk away since there is the West's continuing addiction to oil and we also we need to make sure that the violent jihadist elements don't gain enough strength to completely dominate the region.

 

I'm sorry but you are using stale arguments that after years of usage we can categorically state have failed to turn the tide of public opinion. They are also full of contradictions.

 

You complain about the unfair distribution of world wealth and argue there is a need to redistribute it to prevent economic immigration. But then you argue in favour of mass immigration to support our industries and stop work going abroad? It makes no sense. You argue to boost of our GDP at the expense of poorer nations and then complain about the unfair distribution of wealth, which needs to be redistributed to prevent poor people wanting to migrate?!?

 

The political class in this country keep banging on about how we need continuous economic growth, and cheap foreign labour to fuel it, and you've fallen for it. The Left do it because it suits their multicultural agenda and the Right do it because it keeps big business and the rich happy. It may be true that industries growing on the back of cheap foreign labour increase GDP and even GDP per capita. But that doesn't mean we are all benefiting. The truth is that the gap between rich and poor continues to widen and that is because the wages of the poorest in society are suppressed by foreign worker competition, whilst low wages improve the profits of big business and the rich owners.

 

Not only do ordinary people not share in the financial spoils of mass immigration but they are also the ones who pay the social price that comes with it. It is the average man and woman who sees their neighbourhoods changing beyond recognition... not the ruling elite out in the suburbs. It is the average man and women who has to wait longer to be seen by the NHS and having treatments rationed... not the private health insured rich. It is the average man and women that struggles to get their kids into the oversubscribed local school... not the rich who simply pay their way into good education. The rich dismiss concerns and complaints of ignorant people who do not understand the economics, whilst the liberals dismiss them as ignorant racists and bigots. Seriously, is it any wonder more and more people are becoming disillusioned with the mainstream political parties?

 

Another contradiction in your argument is that you say the Muslim world needs to go through a similar process of reformation that Europe went through and that this needs to 'come from within'. But you then go on to say 'we also we need to make sure that the violent jihadist elements don't gain enough strength to completely dominate the region'. We need to let them reform from within but we also need to make sure they do it and kill them if they don't?!? And whatever we do or don't do, we are responsible for the consequences e.g. refugees? I'm not convinced and you haven't explained why we would want to share the 'horrendous suffering and bloodshed' that is the product of their unreformed culture?

 

Even if you are right about us having a moral responsibility it really doesn't matter... people just aren't up to it. People may initially revel in the short term feel-good factor that comes from playing the good Samaritan but then reality bites and the far more enduring protectionism gene takes over. Just look at how quickly attitudes changed in Germany and how they continue to harden. The far right AfD had just a 2% share of the vote six months ago but are now polling at around 18%. It is a trend that is only going to continue as the reality of this mass migration keeps on biting. There may not be enough angry people to elect a far-right party into power at this moment in time but there are enough to trigger conflict that will act as a catalyst for extremism on both the European and migrant sides. The fact that not all Muslims are extremists is not going to stop this.

 

You repeat liberal thinking and ideas that will ultimately usher in a far-right intolerant reality and are therefore not fit for purpose. It really is time for Liberals to wake up to this reality and realise it is time to cut the loses. This mass migration must be stopped.

[sutty27]

I'm sorry but you are using stale arguments that after years of usage we can categorically state have failed to turn the tide of public opinion. They are also full of contradictions.

 

You complain about the unfair distribution of world wealth and argue there is a need to redistribute it to prevent economic immigration. But then you argue in favour of mass immigration to support our industries and stop work going abroad? It makes no sense. You argue to boost of our GDP at the expense of poorer nations and then complain about the unfair distribution of wealth, which needs to be redistributed to prevent poor people wanting to migrate?!?

 

The political class in this country keep banging on about how we need continuous economic growth, and cheap foreign labour to fuel it, and you've fallen for it. The Left do it because it suits their multicultural agenda and the Right do it because it keeps big business and the rich happy. It may be true that industries growing on the back of cheap foreign labour increase GDP and even GDP per capita. But that doesn't mean we are all benefiting. The truth is that the gap between rich and poor continues to widen and that is because the wages of the poorest in society are suppressed by foreign worker competition, whilst low wages improve the profits of big business and the rich owners.

 

Not only do ordinary people not share in the financial spoils of mass immigration but they are also the ones who pay the social price that comes with it. It is the average man and woman who sees their neighbourhoods changing beyond recognition... not the ruling elite out in the suburbs. It is the average man and women who has to wait longer to be seen by the NHS and having treatments rationed... not the private health insured rich. It is the average man and women that struggles to get their kids into the oversubscribed local school... not the rich who simply pay their way into good education. The rich dismiss concerns and complaints of ignorant people who do not understand the economics, whilst the liberals dismiss them as ignorant racists and bigots. Seriously, is it any wonder more and more people are becoming disillusioned with the mainstream political parties?

 

Another contradiction in your argument is that you say the Muslim world needs to go through a similar process of reformation that Europe went through and that this needs to 'come from within'. But you then go on to say 'we also we need to make sure that the violent jihadist elements don't gain enough strength to completely dominate the region'. We need to let them reform from within but we also need to make sure they do it and kill them if they don't?!? And whatever we do or don't do, we are responsible for the consequences e.g. refugees? I'm not convinced and you haven't explained why we would want to share the 'horrendous suffering and bloodshed' that is the product of their unreformed culture?

 

Even if you are right about us having a moral responsibility it really doesn't matter... people just aren't up to it. People may initially revel in the short term feel-good factor that comes from playing the good Samaritan but then reality bites and the far more enduring protectionism gene takes over. Just look at how quickly attitudes changed in Germany and how they continue to harden. The far right AfD had just a 2% share of the vote six months ago but are now polling at around 18%. It is a trend that is only going to continue as the reality of this mass migration keeps on biting. There may not be enough angry people to elect a far-right party into power at this moment in time but there are enough to trigger conflict that will act as a catalyst for extremism on both the European and migrant sides. The fact that not all Muslims are extremists is not going to stop this.

 

You repeat liberal thinking and ideas that will ultimately usher in a far-right intolerant reality and are therefore not fit for purpose. It really is time for Liberals to wake up to this reality and realise it is time to cut the loses. This mass migration must be stopped.

 

Common sense posts like this need a much wider ordinance than SF, you should be debating this subject on a live TV debate with those that support free movement of people.

[andyofborg]

Common sense posts like this need a much wider ordinance than SF,

 

you mean you want to shoot him/her from a cannon?

[I1L2T3]

Common sense posts like this need a much wider ordinance than SF, you should be debating this subject on a live TV debate with those that support free movement of people.

 

It was a heartfelt post with a lot of good points about how our political class is letting us down, but how can you endorse it while spending half your time on here slavishly defending the Tories?

 

Seriously, on another thread you are posting as if deflation is some kind of economic triumph for the Tories.

[OPEN BORDERS]

Common sense posts like this need a much wider ordinance than SF, you should be debating this subject on a live TV debate with those that support free movement of people.

 

I agree, Zamo is an excellent poster Surely the best on this topic. Too much common sense to be considered for anything else though I'm afraid.

We'll leave all the important decisions to Merkel and her EU cronies, they know best. Ask Greece.

Its all about OPEN BORDERS ! Crazy idea, even I know that.

[sutty27]

It was a heartfelt post with a lot of good points about how our political class is letting us down, but how can you endorse it while spending half your time on here slavishly defending the Tories?

 

Seriously, on another thread you are posting as if deflation is some kind of economic triumph for the Tories.

 

No I don't and no I didn't, you are just making stuff up now. :loopy: