Free movement of people

[OPEN BORDERS]

Its today when the EU meet to discuss the Migrant crisis ?

Wonder what Merkel and Co end up giving the Turks ?

[gomgeg]

After watching part of 'the daily politics' today, Zamo makes more sense in one post than mainstream politicians do in half an hour of ducking and diving evading answering questions.

[JFKvsNixon]

After watching part of 'the daily politics' today, Zamo makes more sense in one post than mainstream politicians do in half an hour of ducking and diving evading answering questions.

 

That's because he's saying what you want to hear.

 

The truth is that the genie of globalisation has been taken out of the bottle and in cannot be put back. It doesn't seem that the poor and those threatened by war are happy to sit back and accept their lot anymore. They want our prosperity and security, and if they cannot get it where they live they'll move to somewhere that they believe that they can get it.

 

I am not saying for one moment that it is anywhere close to being practicable for us in Europe to accommodate everyone, or even a take in a sizeable proportion. That would be disastrous for all concerned, but what we cannot do is believe that we can pull up the drawbridge and leave the refugees to their plight.

 

One of the big challenges to the West is to find a fair answer to this problem.

[gomgeg]

That's because he's saying what you want to hear.

 

The truth is that the genie of globalisation has been taken out of the bottle and in cannot be put back. It doesn't seem that the poor and those threatened by war are happy to sit back and accept their lot anymore. They want our prosperity and security, and if they cannot get it where they live they'll move to somewhere that they believe that they can get it.

 

I am not saying for one moment that it is anywhere close to being practicable for us in Europe to accommodate everyone, or even a take in a sizeable proportion. That would be disastrous for all concerned, but what we cannot do is believe that we can pull up the drawbridge and leave the refugees to their plight.

 

One of the big challenges to the West is to find a fair answer to this problem.

Of course he's saying what I want to hear, that's why I said it. My point is that mainstream politicians can't and won't answer the question without offending their multi culturism dogma. It's all right saying we can't pull up the drawbridge but they need to give an alternative, that's what they've been elected for.

[Quik]

That's because he's saying what you want to hear.

 

The truth is that the genie of globalisation has been taken out of the bottle and in cannot be put back. It doesn't seem that the poor and those threatened by war are happy to sit back and accept their lot anymore. They want our prosperity and security, and if they cannot get it where they live they'll move to somewhere that they believe that they can get it.

 

I am not saying for one moment that it is anywhere close to being practicable for us in Europe to accommodate everyone, or even a take in a sizeable proportion. That would be disastrous for all concerned, but what we cannot do is believe that we can pull up the drawbridge and leave the refugees to their plight.

 

One of the big challenges to the West is to find a fair answer to this problem.

 

You've answered your own question. It is not possible for us to take a fraction of those who wish to come to Europe. So actually pulling up the drawbridge is exactly what we need to do, and do it now before they have wreaked societal havok on Europe.

 

If your tap jams on you don't wait till the baths overflowing to grab a wrench to unjam it. Our resources need to go on effective ways both practical and legal of keeping these people out of Europe not on navel gazing about what could be the least 'unfair' way of keeping most of them out. Africa has tons of space. The middle east has tons of space. If anyone is genuinely fleeing persecution in fear of their life from one part of africa there are plenty of other parts of africa to flee to. Ditto muslim majority countries. If we let one in we encourage a million more. Zero tollerance on third world migration is the only way to a) preserve our way of life and b) force them to confront and solve the problems of the third world by removing the easy option of legging it to a cushy life in the first world.

[JFKvsNixon]

You've answered your own question. It is not possible for us to take a fraction of those who wish to come to Europe. So actually pulling up the drawbridge is exactly what we need to do, and do it now before they have wreaked societal havok on Europe.

 

If your tap jams on you don't wait till the baths overflowing to grab a wrench to unjam it. Our resources need to go on effective ways both practical and legal of keeping these people out of Europe not on navel gazing about what could be the least 'unfair' way of keeping most of them out. Africa has tons of space. The middle east has tons of space. If anyone is genuinely fleeing persecution in fear of their life from one part of africa there are plenty of other parts of africa to flee to. Ditto muslim majority countries. If we let one in we encourage a million more. Zero tollerance on third world migration is the only way to a) preserve our way of life and b) force them to confront and solve the problems of the third world by removing the easy option of legging it to a cushy life in the first world.

 

You're being unrealistic if you think burring our heads in the sand and trying to ignore the issues will solve the problem. There is no way that we posses the willpower to devote the resources and then even take the measures needed to stop an exodus of the numbers that could be involved.

 

Then there is the issue of the resentment of the rich building an iron curtain to keep the poor out will stoke, this resentment will be a fertile breeding ground for the terrorists to recruit people to attack us.

 

So if we do attempt to pull up the drawbridge, I see it being ineffective as a solution to the problem and I see it compromising our future security. We have to sort the problem out at it's source.

[L00b]

We have to sort the problem out at it's source.

Objectively, we can't.

 

Because the problem is at least as cultural, as it is economical.

 

And changing the culture(s) would take far more time and resources than those required to "stop an exodus of the numbers that could be involved".

 

And not "stopping the exodus of the numbers that could be involved" would result in Europe eventually, and in reasonably short order, becoming exactly what the said numbers are escaping. Because the aeons-old tribal rivalries would be (are being) imported just the same.

 

I don't believe Arab people are any more stupid than Europeans, Americans or Asians, surely the vast majority are well aware that they are as economically capable as Europe and the rest of the world, and that most of their problems stem from cultural incompatibilities, whereby solving the said problems requires overcoming these cultural incompatibilities.

 

When a sufficient critical mass of them get ready to help themselves, that will be the time at which to lend help and support aplenty. In the meantime, tough love required to bootstrap cultural evolution so that they get to that stage.

Edited March 17, 2016 by L00b

[JFKvsNixon]

Objectively, we can't.

 

Because the problem is at least as cultural, as it is economical.

 

And changing the culture(s) would take far more time and resources than those required to "stop an exodus of the numbers that could be involved".

 

And not "stopping the exodus of the numbers that could be involved" would result in Europe eventually, and in reasonably short order, becoming exactly what the said numbers are escaping. Because the aeons-old tribal rivalries would be (are being) imported just the same.

 

I don't believe Arab people are any more stupid than Europeans, Americans or Asians, surely the vast majority are well aware that they are as economically capable as Europe and the rest of the world, and that most of their problems stem from cultural incompatibilities, whereby solving the said problems requires overcoming these cultural incompatibilities.

 

When a sufficient critical mass of them get ready to help themselves, that will be the time at which to lend help and support aplenty. In the meantime, tough love required to bootstrap cultural evolution so that they get to that stage.

 

Ok, I didn't use the tightest phraseology. When I say that we have to sort the problems out at their source, I do not necessarily mean that we have to physically put boots on the ground and literally make the necessary changes.

 

I'm talking about finding a wider solution to the problem. At the moment I'm not sure that anybody knows what that solution is for the reasons that you suggest. Maybe the key to the problem is empowering the population to over the cultural dogma that seems to ignite the conflict.

 

I'd be interested in looking at how the former republics of Yugoslavia are working towards overing their past problems.

[sutty27]

You're being unrealistic if you think burring our heads in the sand and trying to ignore the issues will solve the problem. There is no way that we posses the willpower to devote the resources and then even take the measures needed to stop an exodus of the numbers that could be involved.

 

Then there is the issue of the resentment of the rich building an iron curtain to keep the poor out will stoke, this resentment will be a fertile breeding ground for the terrorists to recruit people to attack us.

 

So if we do attempt to pull up the drawbridge, I see it being ineffective as a solution to the problem and I see it compromising our future security. We have to sort the problem out at it's source.

 

Quik wasn't being unrealistic or burring their head in the sand, some of us have the willpower to devote the resources that are needed to stop an exodus but we are opposed by people with their heads buried in the sand.

[Quik]

You're being unrealistic if you think burring our heads in the sand and trying to ignore the issues will solve the problem. There is no way that we posses the willpower to devote the resources and then even take the measures needed to stop an exodus of the numbers that could be involved.

 

Then there is the issue of the resentment of the rich building an iron curtain to keep the poor out will stoke, this resentment will be a fertile breeding ground for the terrorists to recruit people to attack us.

 

So if we do attempt to pull up the drawbridge, I see it being ineffective as a solution to the problem and I see it compromising our future security. We have to sort the problem out at it's source.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth#/media/File%3ACountriesbyfertilityrate.svg

 

Thats the biggest problem among many. I'm absolutely not advocating sticking our heads in the sand. I'm advocating facing up to the reality we face. As you rghtly say there is now more than ever a perception that if you make it to the west from the third world you will be allowed to stay and you will prosper (at least relative to the third world place you're from.) Third world populations are rocketing and the more useless the country the higher the birth rate in many cases. Third world food and water supplies are not rocketting. Third world governance post decolonisation is getting worse rather than better. Cheaper IT means that people in the third world have access to a view on lifestyles in the first world which creates a further driver to leg it to the west.

 

So acknowledging all of that Europe (and the rest of the civilised world) has two choices. Succumb to a third world invaision that will destroy European civilisation in a generation or stop them getting in.

 

To stop them getting in we need the legal and physical barriers in place and that requires numerous changes to the way we do things now. Those who wish to carry on as we are are i'm afraid the ones with their head in the sand.