Colonialism - is the alternative worse?

[Solomon1]

and there has never been an independant country called Palestine to give back to anyone

 

Oh really

 

How come it has it's own currency then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_pound

[tinfoilhat]

Isn't Solomon at least partially right here? Didn't we effectively promise land to the Jews that wasn't ours to give? Israel probably wouldn't have existed without our intervention. We then went on to make things even worse with the Peel plan and various terrible suggestions to stop rising tensions, and then once we realised we'd ballsed it right up we pretty much walked away and didn't look back. The only thing I can possibly say in our defence is that I suppose we were trying to 'do the right thing' and look after the Jews displaced during WW2, but that's hardly an epic defence when you consider that we had to effectively kick a load of innocent people out of their homes to do it. Anyway, I don't really see how Israel is directly relevant to this thread?

 

We didn't kick them all out - out of population of 8 million in Israel 2.7million of them are Palestinian. It's not like they had no history of being there though. They had been turfed out. They had been turfed out of lots of places throughout history cumulating in hitlers bash at wiping them out.

 

If they didn't go there, where would you put them - what would have been your solution to the Jewish question in 1945/6?

 

We are going a tad off topic though!

 

With a bit of thought though, it is on topic. Should a body like the UN take charge in certain places in Africa?

[Solomon1]

what would have been your solution to the Jewish question in 1945/6?

 

Well it wouldn't have been to make Palestinians homeless!

[Quik]

Well it wouldn't have been to make Palestinians homeless!

 

Whats a palestinian? Egyptian gazans and jordanian west bankers suddenly gain a third joint nationality when their nations start a war they lose?

[Eric Arthur]

Whats a palestinian?

 

It's the same as being an East Anglian. Or Mesopotamian.

 

Actually. not Mesopotamia, because that was actually a thing with government and boundaries, unlike Palestine. I'll stick with it being like East Anglia. Mind you East Anglia has only had one government for a couple of thousand years so that doesn't really work either. Palestine is like the West Riding? Yes that works so long as we don't worry too much about actual details or the way that everyone basically gets along without firing rockets from school playgrounds.

[petemcewan]

Who does the cesspit refer to ?

 

Take that off and I'll retract mine.

Edited March 14, 2016 by petemcewan

[Eric Arthur]

This thread has now been deflected into Israel and the Palestinians and tainted by a touch of racism-eg, Israel ,shining example of modernism and democracy

surrounded by a cesspit ,etc,etc.

Retract that allegation now please.

[petemcewan]

Sgtkate, You are right.

 

This thread has now been deflected into Israel and the Palestinians and tainted by a touch of racism-eg, Israel ,shining example of modernism amongst a cesspit,etc.

 

[/color]Sgtkate.Sgt Kate, You are right.

Isn't Solomon at least partially right here? Didn't we effectively promise land to the Jews that wasn't ours to give? Israel probably wouldn't have existed without our intervention. We then went on to make things even worse with the Peel plan and various terrible suggestions to stop rising tensions, and then once we realised we'd ballsed it right up we pretty much walked away and didn't look back. The only thing I can possibly say in our defence is that I suppose we were trying to 'do the right thing' and look after the Jews displaced during WW2, but that's hardly an epic defence when you consider that we had to effectively kick a load of innocent people out of their homes to do it. Anyway, I don't really see how Israel is directly relevant to this thread?

 

Sgtkate, You are right.

 

This thread has now been deflected into Israel and the Palestinians and tainted by a touch of racism-eg, Israel ,shining example of modernism and democracy

surrounded by a cesspit ,etc,etc.

For over a thousand years,until the turn of the century, Palestine was populated overwhelmingly by Arabs,mostly Muslim,some Christian. A few thousand Jews lived beside them in peace.

This peace was shattered as a wave of anti-semitism swept through Europe in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Millions of Jewish people fled the pogroms-anti Jewish massacres, incited by the Tars in Russia . Most went to the USA and Canada. A small number 120000 went to Palestine. They adopted Zionism, the idea that anti-semitism would always exist and therfore it was necessary to set up an exclusively Jewish state.

At the end of the First World War, British forces took control of Palestine from the Ottomans Empire. Palestine then had a population of over a million Arabs and 56,000 Jews. The British promised to grant independance to the Arabs,but secretly negotiated and promised support for " a national homeland for the Jews " in Palestine.

A bitter and bloody conflict followed with the Palestinians facing an alliance of the British and the Zionists. Arab peasants were evicted from their land. They were not allowed to work as labourers on settlements or sells their produce at settlers markets.

The palestinians staged a massive general strike in 1936 against the British for their betrayal of the promises of independance. It lasted 6 months and was followed by two years of uprisings and guerilla war. The British responded with brutal repression. One third of all the troops in the British Empire were deployed in Palestine. The RAF bombed village after villiage. In other villages the British army simple shot every tenth villager (learnt that from the Fascists of WW 2. ) . A shameful period in the history of the British army. My father who was a WW 2 infantry Vet, spat on that history of the British army.

Palestine was finally partioned by the United Nations in 1947. They promised "justice" for both Arabs and Jews. Jewish settlers still owned 6 % of the land and made up 30 % of the population. Nevertheless, the UN gave the Jewish settlers 55 % of Palestine.

This stillwasn't enough for the Zionists. They set about expanding the borders of the proposed state of Israel . They drove another 750 ,000 Palestinians from their homes and seized over 80% of the land.

Their methods were savage .In 1948 the village of Deir Yasin was razed to the ground. Of 400 villagers only 50 survived. The Eyewitnesses from the Red Cross reported the bodies of children mutilated by hand grenades.

(Generalised potted history of Israel and Palestinian conflict)

I could go on. The rest is history as you quite rightly point out .

 

Back to the OP. The West is financially not in position to embark on a wave of colonialism. The global economy is on a wobble , capitalist as an economic system is in crisis, and there as to be another way forward.

(Source . Paul Masson. Postcapitalism . A Guide To Our Future ).

NB, I'm not a communist.

Edited March 14, 2016 by petemcewan

[Eric Arthur]

Who does the cesspit refer to ?

 

Take that off and I'll retract mine.

 

Take your pick as to who, but I won't retract cess pit as a description of the majority of the Middle East. I'd exclude Jordan, and on a good day, Lebanon. The rest is a cess pit of lawless medieval despotism that wants to wipe Israel off the map. If you think that's racist you need to have a long hard look at your values.

[petemcewan]

EA,Israel is fine. It's a shining light of modernity, democracy and civilisation surrounded by a cess pit of lawless medieval despotism that wants to wipe Israel off the map. If the rest of the Middle East was like Israel we wouldn't have all this terrorism and Brits coming home in body bags. Have a think about that for a moment.

 

You slipped up matey by putting that post into the discussion.

 

What I said stays.(unless a moderator removes it).What you put might of got past other poster. But it didn't get past me.