How much are we coloured by indoctrination?

[GhostRiders]

I don't need to quote the Bible. I know plently of Christians who accept evolution and the Big Bang. Their Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ[/Quote]

 

Only you do, because that's what our discussion is about. Where do you think they are supposed to get the teachings of Jesus Christ from? They don't pluck it out of thin air you know. So if you don't mind I'd like those references that show the fully formed concepts of the things I asked for (I'm sure all of which are accepted by your Christian friends) from the Bible itself.

 

My whole question is about indoctrination, believing teachings that aren't actually in the Holy book as fully formed concepts is EXACTLY what I'm referring to. You were the one who said my post was twaddle - prove it, show me the fully formed concepts in the Bible and that will show I'm wrong surely!?

 

The Old Testament was merely a selection of stories that were an attempt to explain the mysteries of life through the eyes of folk many thousand years ago

 

You mean a bit like the parables of Jesus?

 

Perhaps you should talk to folk about what they believe rather than coming out with this load of tripe on their behalf

 

I do, daily, I talk to people of all different faiths. How many Church services have you been to in the last year? How many Mosques? How many Buddhist Temples? I visit all of them regularly, I talk to and have friends of all faiths. I've read the Quran, hadith, Sunnah, Tipitaka, various Taoist texts and Bible more times than I care to remember. Sometimes on my own, sometimes with representatives of the faiths that believe in them.

 

I'm not talking on ANYONE'S behalf, I'm summarising the faith of the umbrella group known as Christians.

 

It is you that seems fixated on putting original in front of the word sin to fit in with your flawed concept. Chritians believe that Christ came to redeme their sin. Nothing to do with original sin at all

 

It's got EVERYTHING to do with original sin, where do you think that sin comes from? You really, really need to understand what you're arguing about before you argue about it. Let's make it exceptionally simple.

 

No original sin = no sin.

 

Christians believe that Christ came to redeem the sin that humans are prone to because, according to them Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. Without original sin, no sin for Christians to suffer.

 

I don't know how plainer I can be.

 

You are starting to sound like those well dressed folk who bang on my front door from time to time.

 

Considering I don't even believe in God that's unlikely.

 

What I do sound like is someone challenging you to provide evidence for the things you are saying after YOU came along and merely said I was talking rubbish.

 

Let's make it clear.

 

I'm saying that the concepts of Christian faith was not fully formed in the Bible and that Christians, rather than reading the Bible on its own merits and using reason to understand it (alongside their faith) are simply indoctrinated into believing in various doctrines that aren't even fully formed in their own holy book.

 

Now, if you please, those Biblical references.

Edited March 28, 2016 by GhostRiders

[andyofborg]

I've never had much time for religion but my impression was that the Old Testament was nothing to do with Christianity but was Hebrew text that the Abrahamic religions took as the basis of their faiths and way of life. So Christians have no more belief in the words of the Old Testament than Jews or Muslims.

 

the old testament is a subset of jewish writings which the 6th century church felt best justified their belief that jesus was the fulfillment of judasim's messianic prophecies.

 

there is a far wider set of literature that the various denominations of judaism use as the foundations of their beliefs.

[apelike]

Christians believe that Christ came to redeem the sin that humans are prone to because, according to them Adam and Eve sinned in the garden. Without original sin, no sin for Christians to suffer.

 

I don't know how plainer I can be.

 

Actually you are correct and it is very clear that there is no such thing as original sin. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God, and sin was not a concept till the New Testament was formed. Even then it only relies on a few mentions but is now commonly part of the Catholic Christian tradition as without it most of their religious structure would fall apart.

[carosio]

Started to digress somewhat from the OP but here are some pointers, but these can vary depending on the branch of church, the leaders of which will indoctrinate their followers:

 

BASIS OF CHRISTIAN FAITH

 

"The Christian Faith is Founded Upon the Fact and Experience of Jesus Christ. -- Without Him there would have been no such faith.

 

1. The fact of Christ. This faith bases itself primarily not upon reason or feeling, but upon Jesus Christ, a historical person, and what He said and did while upon this earth in bodily form. The early disciples and preachers declared themselves to be witnesses. They were sent forth as witnesses (Matthew 28:18-20; John 15:27; Acts 1:8; 2: 32). The speeches of Peter (Acts 2:14-40; 3:12-26; 4:8-12), Stephen (Acts 7:1-56) and of Paul (Acts 13:16-41; 22:1-21) are recitals, of certain well attested occurrences, which have for their chief point the setting forth of the fact of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as the Saviour of men and hope of the world (Acts 2:38,39).

 

2. The experience of Christ. By this is meant the experience which men have who receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord. There is a historical Christ; and there is a spiritual Christ who enters into a communion of happiness and joy, with believers in Him. Jesus Christ, when on earth in bodily form, promised the coming of the Holy Spirit who should glorify Him (John 16:13,14); He also declared to His disciples, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Wherever this gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and men under its power truly repent of their sins and accept Him as their Saviour, as in the past so now, men may enter into personal relations with their risen and glorified Lord (Acts 2:40-42; John 7:17; Acts 8: 5-7; Romans 8:1-10; Colossians 1:27; Acts 26:15-19).

 

Essential Elements. -- In the Christian faith there are six component elements.

 

1. Belief in God as The Spirit, "infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in His being, wisdom and power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth" (John 4:24; Exodus 20:2-7; Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:4,6; Psalm 19; 104:24).

 

2. Belief in man, as a child of God, whose spirit is destined to live forever (Genesis 2:7; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 6:25; 5:29,30).

 

3. Belief in sin which taints and corrupts the heart of man, making it finally, if unchecked, the dwelling place of all evil. The effects of sin are everywhere plainly manifest. Men not only sin through ignorance and carelessly but willfully. The worst sins are those which are of the spirit, anger, pride, malice and envy (Isaiah 53:6; 64:6; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8; Romans 1:18-3:23; 8:7).

 

4. Belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Saviour of men, who can cleanse the heart of man and save him from his sins. Jesus Christ came not only to reveal God, the Father, to man but also to purge his heart from evil. "He is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1,2; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:24,25; Matthew 20:28; Romans 3:24,25; 5:8; 8:3; Galatians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Matthew 9:2-6).

 

5. Belief in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 3:16; Galatians 5:22) who "testifies of Christ, as the Saviour of sinners, unites us to Him by faith, and makes us partakers of all His benefits." Jesus said, "When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me" (John 15:26). "The Spirit of truth ... will guide you into all truth.... He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine and shall show it unto you" (John 16:13,14; 14:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Titus 3:5,6; Matthew 28: 19; John 3:5,6).

 

6. Belief in the resurrection and the life to come, the issues of which are declared to be eternal. "The hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28,29; Matthew 25:31-46; 25:1-13). The great rainbow of promise that spans the future, for those who trust in Christ, is in the fact that He said, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die" (John 11:25,26; I Thessalonians 5:23; John 6:47; 14:2,19). The resurrection body "will be spiritual, immortal, incorruptible, and like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23,35-57)."

 

Source: Bible Hub.

[GhostRiders]

Started to digress somewhat from the OP but here are some pointers, but these can vary depending on the branch of church, the leaders of which will indoctrinate their followers:

 

BASIS OF CHRISTIAN FAITH

 

"The Christian Faith is Founded Upon the Fact and Experience of Jesus Christ. -- Without Him there would have been no such faith.

 

1. The fact of Christ. This faith bases itself primarily not upon reason or feeling, but upon Jesus Christ, a historical person, and what He said and did while upon this earth in bodily form. The early disciples and preachers declared themselves to be witnesses. They were sent forth as witnesses (Matthew 28:18-20; John 15:27; Acts 1:8; 2: 32). The speeches of Peter (Acts 2:14-40; 3:12-26; 4:8-12), Stephen (Acts 7:1-56) and of Paul (Acts 13:16-41; 22:1-21) are recitals, of certain well attested occurrences, which have for their chief point the setting forth of the fact of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, as the Saviour of men and hope of the world (Acts 2:38,39).

 

2. The experience of Christ. By this is meant the experience which men have who receive Christ as their Saviour and Lord. There is a historical Christ; and there is a spiritual Christ who enters into a communion of happiness and joy, with believers in Him. Jesus Christ, when on earth in bodily form, promised the coming of the Holy Spirit who should glorify Him (John 16:13,14); He also declared to His disciples, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Wherever this gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and men under its power truly repent of their sins and accept Him as their Saviour, as in the past so now, men may enter into personal relations with their risen and glorified Lord (Acts 2:40-42; John 7:17; Acts 8: 5-7; Romans 8:1-10; Colossians 1:27; Acts 26:15-19).

 

Essential Elements. -- In the Christian faith there are six component elements.

 

1. Belief in God as The Spirit, "infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in His being, wisdom and power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth" (John 4:24; Exodus 20:2-7; Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:4,6; Psalm 19; 104:24).

 

2. Belief in man, as a child of God, whose spirit is destined to live forever (Genesis 2:7; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Matthew 6:25; 5:29,30).

 

3. Belief in sin which taints and corrupts the heart of man, making it finally, if unchecked, the dwelling place of all evil. The effects of sin are everywhere plainly manifest. Men not only sin through ignorance and carelessly but willfully. The worst sins are those which are of the spirit, anger, pride, malice and envy (Isaiah 53:6; 64:6; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8; Romans 1:18-3:23; 8:7).

 

4. Belief in Jesus Christ, the Son of God and the Saviour of men, who can cleanse the heart of man and save him from his sins. Jesus Christ came not only to reveal God, the Father, to man but also to purge his heart from evil. "He is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:1,2; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:24,25; Matthew 20:28; Romans 3:24,25; 5:8; 8:3; Galatians 3:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Matthew 9:2-6).

 

5. Belief in the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 3:16; Galatians 5:22) who "testifies of Christ, as the Saviour of sinners, unites us to Him by faith, and makes us partakers of all His benefits." Jesus said, "When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me" (John 15:26). "The Spirit of truth ... will guide you into all truth.... He shall glorify Me: for He shall receive of Mine and shall show it unto you" (John 16:13,14; 14:26; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Titus 3:5,6; Matthew 28: 19; John 3:5,6).

 

6. Belief in the resurrection and the life to come, the issues of which are declared to be eternal. "The hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28,29; Matthew 25:31-46; 25:1-13). The great rainbow of promise that spans the future, for those who trust in Christ, is in the fact that He said, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live. And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die" (John 11:25,26; I Thessalonians 5:23; John 6:47; 14:2,19). The resurrection body "will be spiritual, immortal, incorruptible, and like unto the glorious body of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20,21; 1 Corinthians 15:20-23,35-57)."

 

Source: Bible Hub.

 

That's all lovely, none of it actually presents Heaven being a place we go when we die, a trinity, Jesus as God or original sin as complete concepts though does it?

 

For fear of having a post twelve miles long I'll just touch on one aspect of what you've written.

 

Belief in the resurrection. I've never disputed the Biblical teaching on resurrection. What I asked for was Biblical evidence for the widely held belief by MOST Christians that there is a heaven we go to when we die where we will be reunited with our loved ones.

 

The resurrection you've alluded to is what will occur after the rapture when all the dead will be bodily resurrected on Earth and judged along with the living.

 

Rather than posting line after line of Biblical scripture which merely, in some cases contain phrases such as 'spirit' if you could, as I have asked present me (and bear in mind I'm already familiar with the Bible) point out to me where the above doctrines are presented in a complete form which is pretty much the purpose of my asking I would be most obliged.

 

If, however you do want me to pick everything apart you've posted to show that they don't in fact represent the 'final' doctrines of Christianity I will be more than happy to, just give me the word. You will have to allow me a couple of days and be prepared for some very lengthy and in depth posts though. I hope my resurrection example will show you that this isn't necessary though.

[foxy lady]

the old testament is a subset of jewish writings which the 6th century church felt best justified their belief that jesus was the fulfillment of judasim's messianic prophecies.

 

there is a far wider set of literature that the various denominations of judaism use as the foundations of their beliefs.

 

But then that was just the beliefs or motives of someone in the 6th century. That has got nothing to do with what motivates anyone to believe in Christ, or what anyone beieves today.

[GhostRiders]

But then that was just the beliefs or motives of someone in the 6th century. That has got nothing to do with what motivates anyone to believe in Christ, or what anyone beieves today.

 

It clearly does though.

 

Considering the Church, that organisation which throughout history has both formulated and propagated the teachings of Christ it has everything to do with it.

 

Let me put another question to you, as you seem utterly devoid of the ability to answer my previous questions.

 

If neither the Bible, nor, now it seems the Church has anything to do with the belief in Christ where exactly are the believers to access their teachings?

[carosio]

That's all lovely, none of it actually presents Heaven being a place we go when we die, a trinity, Jesus as God or original sin as complete concepts though does it?

 

For fear of having a post twelve miles long I'll just touch on one aspect of what you've written.

 

Belief in the resurrection. I've never disputed the Biblical teaching on resurrection. What I asked for was Biblical evidence for the widely held belief by MOST Christians that there is a heaven we go to when we die where we will be reunited with our loved ones.

 

The resurrection you've alluded to is what will occur after the rapture when all the dead will be bodily resurrected on Earth and judged along with the living.

 

Rather than posting line after line of Biblical scripture which merely, in some cases contain phrases such as 'spirit' if you could, as I have asked present me (and bear in mind I'm already familiar with the Bible) point out to me where the above doctrines are presented in a complete form which is pretty much the purpose of my asking I would be most obliged.

 

If, however you do want me to pick everything apart you've posted to show that they don't in fact represent the 'final' doctrines of Christianity I will be more than happy to, just give me the word. You will have to allow me a couple of days and be prepared for some very lengthy and in depth posts though. I hope my resurrection example will show you that this isn't necessary though.

 

Just to clarify, this is something I selected from a website that I believe to be typical of the "articles of faith" that are usually expounded by Christian theologians and the like, and as an agnostic/atheist I have no conviction in the factual truth of the texts.

[GhostRiders]

Just to clarify, this is something I selected from a website that I believe to be typical of the "articles of faith" that are usually expounded by Christian theologians and the like, and as an agnostic/atheist I have no conviction in the factual truth of the texts.

 

OK, my apologies. My question related to 'believers' on the whole. The majority of Christians* I've met believe in Heaven, trinity, original sin etc and to this is what I'm interested in. How much of what we believe is indoctrination and how much have we genuinely reasoned for ourselves.

 

I thought you were trying to provide evidence for those doctrines based on my earlier questions to another user. I appreciate I misunderstood your post and apologise again.

 

*by Christians I refer to mainstream Christianity. Sects including the Jehovas witnesses, Latter day saints and Christedelphians hold varying doctrinal views on these subjects that don't always align with 'mainstream' Christian thought.

[carosio]

I was brought up in the Christian (Anglican) tradition - Sunday School, prayers in assembly etc and I accepted those biblical beliefs and doctrines as the norm. At the age of around 23 I read books on Biblical Criticism and found them convincing; I now look back in amazement at the beliefs that I previously held. So, perhaps I too had been "indoctrinated" by teachers that were earnest in their beliefs and therefore for my own good.