The end of the world is nigh.

[I1L2T3]

Suspect what you like, they were posted, seen by others and then deleted because they proved the point I made and don't intend looking for them again.

 

I can back this up. They were posted but we're 10 years old.

[sutty27]

No land is preserved there. There is quite simply nowhere else for them to build. They have Alpine mountains and foothills over much of the country, a few small towns, and agricultural land which is basically a flood plain for the river Rhine.

 

Stop trying to compare the UK with Liechtenstein. It's daft.

 

They can build on their farm land, they can build up the sides of their mountains, but I do think they are right to preserve their land and I think we would be right to do the same, they do prove that it is possible to be in the free trading area without having to put up with mass immigration.

 

Flood plains, now where have I heard that before, ho yes its the land we are having to buildi on because our population is too large for our size.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 08:53 ----------

 

I can back this up. They were posted but we're 10 years old.

 

Some where ten years old but they were posted to support a claim about the 2005 terrorist attacks.

[L00b]

It's got a population of < 30,000. There is limited space because much of it is mountainous.

<...>

Liechtenstein is not a model for the UK. It is geographically very small with a tiny population, it is very mountainous, it is massively entwined economically with both Austria and Switzerland with a commuter belt in both those of countries.

I know.

 

That's the point I've put across with the Sheffield comparison. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, perhaps not in plain enough terms for the cerebrally-challenged

 

It provides the entire context for Lichtenstein's draconian residency restrictions. Again, something which the Brexit-supporting cerebrally-challenged (or the Brexit-supporting disingenuous type, same-o) will steadfastly ignore.

 

The posts since yesterday also suggest that sutty's original assertion ("Lichtenstein can restrict the free movement of EU people despite being an EFTA/EEA member state") has been lost in the noise. For the avoidance of doubt: that assertion is wrong, Lichtenstein has only been given a reprieve about residency (freedom of establishment) due to its size, it still has to abide by all other tenets of the free movement principle, that applies equally to EU and non-EU EEA members states. There is no legislation that stops an EU national living in neighbouring EU Austria or EEA Switzerland from taking up employment in Lichtenstein. 20,000 non-Lichtensteiners do that everyday. That's what freedom of movement intra-EEA means.

 

And if you think a Brexited UK could pull off Lichtenstein's residency restrictions and remain an EEA/EFTA, you need your head urgently examined. Brussels, France and Germany ahead of the pack, would love nothing more than such a negotiating position by the UK: it would free them politically to refuse the UK's entry into the EEA, and so massively boost their national economies to fill up the import void.

 

You've served your time on my ignore, but you're still on my naughty list

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

I know.

 

That's the point I've put across with the Sheffield comparison. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, perhaps not in plain enough terms for the cerebrally-challenged

 

It provides the entire context for Lichtenstein's draconian residency restrictions. Again, something which the Brexit-supporting cerebrally-challenged (or the Brexit-supporting disingenuous type, same-o) will steadfastly ignore.

 

The posts since yesterday also suggest that sutty's original assertion ("Lichtenstein can restrict the free movement of EU people despite being an EFTA/EEA member state") has been lost in the noise. For the avoidance of doubt: that assertion is wrong, Lichtenstein has only been given a reprieve about residency (freedom of establishment) due to its size, it still has to abide by all other tenets of the free movement principle, that applies equally to EU and non-EU EEA members states. There is no legislation that stops an EU national living in neighbouring EU Austria or EEA Switzerland from taking up employment in Lichtenstein. 20,000 non-Lichtensteiners do that everyday. That's what freedom of movement intra-EEA means.

 

And if you think a Brexited UK could pull off Lichtenstein's residency restrictions and remain an EEA/EFTA, you need your head urgently examined. Brussels, France and Germany ahead of the pack, would love nothing more than such a negotiating position by the UK: it would free them politically to refuse the UK's entry into the EEA, and so massively boost their national economies to fill up the import void.

 

You've served your time on my ignore, but you're still on my naughty list

 

Not being in the EEA/EFTA would also boost our economy because the stuff we buy from them would have to be produced locally if they refused to trade with us, and we buy more from them than we sell to them.

[L00b]

Not being in the EEA/EFTA would also boost our economy because the stuff we buy from them would have to be produced locally if they refused to trade with us, and we buy more from them than we sell to them.

Isolationism and autarky in a modern globalised economy? Is that your argument?

 

Really?

 

I very much doubt they'd "refuse" to trade with us. But I very much believe it wouldn't be anywhere near on the terms which you have in mind, and that your economic 'model' would precipitate a generalised loss of competivitity of the UK's private sector (which is mostly services nowadays) quasi-overnight. Meaning a rocket-powered race to the socio-economical bottom. Hope you're all ready to dig coal and till fields.

 

I for one won't be welcoming your new Chinese and Russian overlords : I'll be long gone to greener pastures next door (either side is fine).

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[I1L2T3]

Not being in the EEA/EFTA would also boost our economy because the stuff we buy from them would have to be produced locally if they refused to trade with us, and we buy more from them than we sell to them.

 

I guess you haven't even begun to consider the scale of the economic upheaval that will result from such a realignment.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 09:31 ----------

 

Isolationism and autarky in a modern globalised economy? Is that your argument?

 

Really?

 

I very much doubt they'd "refuse" to trade with us. But I very much believe it wouldn't be anywhere near on the terms which you have in mind, and that your economic 'model' would precipitate a generalised loss of competivitity of the UK's private sector (which is mostly services nowadays) quasi-overnight. Meaning a rocket-powered race to the socio-economical bottom. Hope you're all ready to dig coal and till fields.

 

I for one won't be welcoming your new Chinese and Russian overlords : I'll be long gone to greener pastures next door (either side is fine).

 

I'm planning a similar exit. Having a wife from one of the other EU countries has big advantages. We'll be sorting out the kids dual citizenship soon.

[monkey104]

Don't be daft. Posts like this really show a confused mind at work. There is plenty of space in the UK, the reality is that the UKs population averages are massively distorted due to London and its commuter belt.

 

Statements like the one you make are completely disingenuous and show that your little Englander mentality 'England ist voll!' is merely an excuse.

 

It also shows you've never driven to Doncaster on the M18 or through the Dearne Valley, want to see where you can put more people? Have a try at that.

 

To turn that on its head, have you ever driven through France, Germany or Spain? ( I suspect you have )In some places you can drive through empty countryside for hours before coming upon a large city

[L00b]

I'm planning a similar exit. Having a wife from one of the other EU countries has big advantages. We'll be sorting out the kids dual citizenship soon.

We're the other way around.

 

Kid's been a dual national (formally) for a couple of years now. Dunno about you, but I wouldn't leave sorting yours too long...I'm probably being overcautious here (the UK wouldn't actually exit the EU for a few years), but the referendum is only a few months away now, and its outcome might precipitate "political happenings" (is how I'd put it) in the UK and/or other EU member states e.g. cut-off dates for initiating formal consular procedures in UK etc.

 

As a lifelong EU economic migrant from a family of lifelong economic migrants, who has all rolled his stone a fair way and taken the political/xenophobic/<etc.> knocks along the way just like my forefathers...my experience is that strange things happen in politically-opportunistic vacuums. So you learn to be, well, perhaps not paranoid...but that doesn't mean they'll not be after you one day, cause history says they do time and again

 

I completed exit planning last month, all ready if it all goes south farther than the 'comfort threshold' I've set for us.

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[tzijlstra]

To turn that on its head, have you ever driven through France, Germany or Spain? ( I suspect you have )In some places you can drive through empty countryside for hours before coming upon a large city

 

You can in the UK. In fact, you can start that journey less than an hour away from here: Take the A1(M) from Leeds to Newcastle.

 

The simple fact is that the global population is set to rise before it stabilises and hopefully drops. Any way, the point I made was to show how dumb it is to argue that Liechtenstein compares to the UK in any way shape or form. You could fit Liechtenstein into the UK about four thousand times and get a different looking country each time.

 

People need to stop looking for illusionary paths to justify wanting to leave the EU. I have argued many times before that if the UK goes the route of Switzerland or Norway (which is what keeps being referred to), they still have enormous migration as well, not only that, they still have to adhere to the free movement of people principle, Switzerland is resisting but can't for much longer (and is letting in tens of thousands of EU migrants anyway because their labourforce is age-skewed) without losing the benefits of access to the open market. If the UK was to leave the EU purely on the matter of immigration a lot of people will be sorely disappointed that there will still be people speaking a foreign language on trains and trams. The only end to following that route is full on nationalism.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 10:02 ----------

 

We're the other way around.

 

Kid's been a dual national (formally) for a couple of years now. Dunno about you, but I wouldn't leave sorting yours too long...I'm probably being overcautious here (the UK wouldn't actually exit the EU for a few years), but the referendum is only a few months away now, and its outcome might precipitate "political happenings" (is how I'd put it) in the UK and/or other EU member states e.g. cut-off dates for initiating formal consular procedures in UK etc.

 

As a lifelong EU economic migrant from a family of lifelong economic migrants, who has all rolled his stone a fair way and taken the political/xenophobic/<etc.> knocks along the way just like my forefathers...my experience is that strange things happen in politically-opportunistic vacuums. So you learn to be, well, perhaps not paranoid...but that doesn't mean they'll not be after you one day, cause history says they do time and again

 

I completed exit planning last month, all ready if it all goes south farther than the 'comfort threshold' I've set for us.

 

Going to Scotland

[Cyclone]

I can back this up. They were posted but we're 10 years old.

 

So they were deleted? Or was he banned like he said?

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 10:58 ----------

 

We're the other way around.

 

Kid's been a dual national (formally) for a couple of years now. Dunno about you, but I wouldn't leave sorting yours too long...I'm probably being overcautious here (the UK wouldn't actually exit the EU for a few years), but the referendum is only a few months away now, and its outcome might precipitate "political happenings" (is how I'd put it) in the UK and/or other EU member states e.g. cut-off dates for initiating formal consular procedures in UK etc.

 

As a lifelong EU economic migrant from a family of lifelong economic migrants, who has all rolled his stone a fair way and taken the political/xenophobic/<etc.> knocks along the way just like my forefathers...my experience is that strange things happen in politically-opportunistic vacuums. So you learn to be, well, perhaps not paranoid...but that doesn't mean they'll not be after you one day, cause history says they do time and again

 

I completed exit planning last month, all ready if it all goes south farther than the 'comfort threshold' I've set for us.

 

This is just another problem of the potential Brexit. A flight of all the well educated, well paid immigrants who can. Possibly accompanied by all the natives who are also well educated and well paid enough to consider leaving.

I like living in Sheffield, but I'm sure there are nice places in Canada where I could be happy. I've got friends in Seattle at the moment, so maybe south end of the West coast... Take my personal limited company, my corporation tax, vat, personal tax and spending, take my other half and her chartered engineer career and the PAYE she pays and all her spending, and move it all to Canada. Hell, maybe my retired parents could take their investments, sell up their bungalow and move as well, although they'd have a harder time getting residency. They probably have enough £££ savings to qualify though.