The end of the world is nigh.

[I1L2T3]

So they were deleted? Or was he banned like he said?

 

They actually were posted then removed by a mod. I don't know if sutty was banned though.

 

I'm not going to comment on whether I think it was right or wrong because I've run into trouble for discussing mod's actions before.

[L00b]

This is just another problem of the potential Brexit. A flight of all the well educated, well paid immigrants who can. Possibly accompanied by all the natives who are also well educated and well paid enough to consider leaving.

The dumber end of the pro-brexiting scale will say 'good riddance', possibly with a sprinkling of 'traitors' for the Brit contingent. The SF standard is usually "don't let the door hit your bum on the way out".

 

The smarter end of the pro-brexiting scale will say 'it will open job opportunities to highly talented individuals currently stuck in Mcjobs' (hint to them: the real talent rarely ever gets stuck in Mcjobs, it just emigrates where better opportunities are, Brexit or not).

 

But noone on that scale will acknowledge the herculean training burden (compounded by the loss of the emigrating tutoring base), the lost commercial synergies (emigrants taking their global business links and revenue opportunities with them), the intervening and non-trivial dip in tax revenue (from income and corporate taxation bases)...

 

...nor the impact of all the above on the backbone of today's UK plc., namely the private financial sector (Dublin and Frankfurt already have the plushest red carpets you ever saw ready to roll).

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[Cyclone]

I don't see how it will open job opportunities. The jobs that are being vacated are supported by the consumer base and/or tax spend. If the higher spending consumers are the ones leaving then they take their capacity to buy things (goods, services, etc) AND their tax contribution with them.

The economy will shrink disproportionately, more jobs will be lost from the economy than the number of people who leave, unemployment will actually increase (and amongst the skilled and educated that will trigger more people to emigrate). I'm not claiming that it will be a deepening spiral or anything, but there is no way the UK economy doesn't suffer a huge blow from leaving the EU.

 

Edit - I know you weren't claiming it would, you were just explaining what the smarter pro brexit argument would be.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Cyclone

[I1L2T3]

The two excellent posts above from Cyclone and Loob outline what will inevitably happen.

 

Nobody should be under any illusions, and as I've pointed out a couple of times already the notion of a post-Brexit vote period of economic turmoil (that even Brexiters admit will happen) translates into lost jobs for the ordinary worker, unpayable debts, and maybe lost homes.

 

We have no idea where the axe will fall on those jobs. It could be anywhere from the top to the bottom.

[sutty27]

Isolationism and autarky in a modern globalised economy? Is that your argument?

 

Really?

 

I very much doubt they'd "refuse" to trade with us. But I very much believe it wouldn't be anywhere near on the terms which you have in mind, and that your economic 'model' would precipitate a generalised loss of competivitity of the UK's private sector (which is mostly services nowadays) quasi-overnight. Meaning a rocket-powered race to the socio-economical bottom. Hope you're all ready to dig coal and till fields.

 

I for one won't be welcoming your new Chinese and Russian overlords : I'll be long gone to greener pastures next door (either side is fine).

 

Nope my argument is that we can be in the European free trade area without being in then schengen area and without having to give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 13:04 ----------

 

I guess you haven't even begun to consider the scale of the economic upheaval that will result from such a realignment.

 

No point planning for that which won't happen, we will be in the free trade area, we won't be in the schengen area and we won't give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 13:09 ----------

 

 

Any way, the point I made was to show how dumb it is to argue that Liechtenstein compares to the UK in any way shape or form.

 

No one as argued that Liechtenstein compares to the UK in any way shape or form, to think they have is just dumb.

 

I have simply pointed out that tiny insignificant little Liechtenstein managed to get access to the EU free trade area whilst placing restriction on the EU about who can live and work there.

 

We are members of the EU, Liechtenstein is part of the free trade area but I wouldn't be permitted to live and work there. They got the right deal and we will get the right deal.

[truman]

Nope my argument is that we can be in the European free trade area without being in then schengen area and without having to give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

 

 

We aren't in Schengen now.....

[sutty27]

We aren't in Schengen now.....

 

Yep but the Brexit opposition like to claim that leaving will result in the UK being forced in to get a trade deal.

[L00b]

Nope my argument is that we can be in the European free trade area without being in then schengen area and without having to give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

There are 4 EFTA members states that are not EU member states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.

 

All 4 are in Schengen, except a small bit of Norway (Svalbard). All 4 fully implement the EEA's (i.e the EU's ) freedom of movement principle.

 

It's harder to move there to live than in EU member states, hardest in Lichtenstein. But it's significantly easier than moving to live in the US, Australia, Canada and much elsewhere. Because they want to be in the EEA/EFTA and trade with the EU on substantially (but not quite) the same basis as EU members states trade between themselves (EFTA do suffer trade barriers: far fewer than the US, Australia, China, etc. but they're there alright. Look them up).

 

You are wrong.

I have simply pointed out that tiny insignificant little Liechtenstein managed to get access to the EU free trade area whilst placing restriction on the EU about who can live and work there.

You are wrong. See below.

We are members of the EU, Liechtenstein is part of the free trade area but I wouldn't be permitted to live and work there. They got the right deal and we will get the right deal.

You are wrong.

 

For the n-th time: you are perfectly entitled to take up work there. Now. Today. You do have some tight hoops to jump to live there though.

 

Considering how big it is (it's less than half the size of Sheffield) and how much it costs to live there, then unless you immigrate to head a private bank (in which case I'm quietly confident the local government would find it in its heart to grant you a residence permit out of its discretionary half of them), you would in all likelihood live in nearby Austria and commute cross-border each day. Like the 20,000 who already do.

 

And like most of the other hundreds of thousands of transborder workers the length and breadth of Schengen borders (and non-Schengen borders, e.g. RoI citizens living in RoI and commuting to work in N.I. - and reciprocally).

 

E.g the tens of thousands of French, Germans, Belgians, Italians, British, Spaniards etc. who choose to live in the tri-border area (north east France, south east Belgium, Eastern Germany) and commute to work in Luxemburg city everyday. Relative to France, it's half the living costs of Luxemburg for twice the pay and benefits/social security cover: if you're a worker bee, you'd have to be an idiot to want to live in Luxemburg - but you'd give your left nut to work there alright.

 

Stop being dim about Lichtenstein already.

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

There are 4 EFTA members states that are not EU member states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland. All 4 are in Schengen, except a small bit of Norway (Svalbard). You're wrong.

 

 

We are not in Schengen now and we won't be in Schengen if we leave, you are wrong.

 

 

You are wrong.

Nope I am correct.

You are wrong.

Nope I am correct.

 

For the n-th time: you are perfectly entitled to take up work there. Now. Today. You do have some tight hoops to jump to live there.

 

Incorrect.

 

 

Considering how big it is (it's less than half the size of Sheffield) and how much it costs to live there, then unless you immigrate to head a private bank (in which case I'm quietly confident the local government would find it in its heart to grant you a residence permit out of its discretionary half of them), you would in all likelihood live in nearby Austria and commute cross-border each day. Like the 20,000 who already do.

 

Yep its small and managed to get that which you claim we couldn't get.

 

And like most of the other hundreds of thousands of transborder workers the length and breadth of Schengen borders (and non-Schengen, e.g. Rep of Ireland and N.I.).

 

E.g the tens of thousands of French, German, Italian, British, Spaniards etc. who choose to live in north east France and commute to work in Luxemburg city everyday. It's half the living costs of Luxemburg and periphery for twice the pay and benefits/social security cover: if you're a worker bee, you'd have to be an idiot to want to live in Luxemburg.

 

Stop being dim about Lichtenstein already.

 

So you think 100's of thousands of EU citizens will commute to the UK each if we restrict residency.

[L00b]

We are not in Schengen now and we won't be in Schengen if we leave, you are wrong.

You're going to have to explain to me how and why a Brexited EFTA'd UK wouldn't end up in Schengen, when the 4 only other EFTA members states are all in Schengen:

Nope my argument is that we can be in the European free trade area without being in then schengen area and without having to give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

Alternatively, I'd love a go with your crystal ball, clearly it's the sole working model on the planet

 

Nope I am correct.

Nope I am correct.

Incorrect.

How old are you? 5?

So you think 100's of thousands of EU citizens will commute to the UK each if we restrict residency.

Absolutely not.

 

What I think is that no serious Brexiter is dumb enough to want to restrict residency in a Brexited UK based on the Lichtenstein model.

 

Only rabid xenophobes/nationalists and the terminally idiotic economically-illiterate

Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b